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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Home births are irresponsible

373 replies

LadyShapes · 14/07/2011 09:05

Did anyone see the start of Lorraine at about 8.30? They were talking about what's in the news and one of the stories was about how more women should have home births. The delighful guest they had on to talk about it said that she thought home births were irresponsible and dangerous. She also said she thought natural births were a load of rubbish and she just wanted to be in hospital and have medical intervention (paraphrasing). Oh and she wouldn't have a home birth because she has cream carpets. The other guest just agreed with her, so the that was the extent of the discussion.

Is it me? AIBU to think they shouldn't discuss news stories unless the guests have some kind of informed opinion (I mean, all the infomation I have had from my midwife tells me about the benefits of home births and a natural birth as well as the risks), or they should have read more than just the headline. Or AIBU to be watching Lorraine and hoping for some kind of balanced discussion.

OP posts:
Orbinator · 14/07/2011 21:36

Yes Rocky that's how this thread started - the fact there should be choice. There should have been two sides to the "debate" on LK's morning show. End of.

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 21:38

But spud there are cases where babies will die if they aren't removed by c section. If the mother doesn't get to the hospital in time then it is clear that they would have been better off had they already been there. The fact that 99 out of 100 people or whatever who hb are fine and don't need a section will have no bearing whatsoever on that one womans tragedy. People are individuals. The risk of a tragedy like that happening with a hb is small - but it is of massive consequence.
The problems you list with hospital births are all avoidable. Few women are forced to labour in unnatural positions. I was given birthing ball and encouraged to move around.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 14/07/2011 21:38

Rocky you do realise that you have midwives at home dont you?

Its not like homebirth is the option for people who hate midwives.

Its for people who want to have their babies at home with midwives and drugs and oxygen and medical help etc.

z1rconia · 14/07/2011 21:39

I had what appeared to be a textbook birth with my firstborn,not even one stitch. However,if I'd given birth at home,I wouldn't be alive. A retained placenta ensured that there was a roomful of medics watching, whilst it was removed piece by piece.
Thank God it wasn't a home-birth,for me, anyway.

spudulika · 14/07/2011 21:43

"I think - listen to Riven. She has to live with the decisions she made forever."

Riven had a homebirth following a previous caesarean. She had an additional chance of something going badly wrong.

"I agree that some people have unrealistic expectations about their birth"

I agree. I think first time mums in particular ought to be told that they may well be left on their own for long periods of time in labour, if they go into hospital, are likely to give birth lying on their back, have limited mobility in labour, and are in all likelihood going to come home with a second degree tear, if not a large episiotomy or c/s scar. Tell it like it is.

"The MW's are not your enemy"

Absolutely not. But many of them are knackered, and finding it incredibly hard to keep the women in their care safe, because there simply aren't enough of them at work at any one time.

"If you feel so strongly go off and have your baby with NO help, no intervention, just let your body do what it needs to do. No - I didnt think so."

Oh piss off. Nobody's arguing for unassisted birth.

"And if you really want the birth of your dreams pay for an independant midwife. The fact is your baby will come in its own way ready or not!"

Yes - but most people would prefer it to arrive safely without doing loads of harm and traumatising them in the process.

There's nothing unreasonable about wanting optimal, safe care, which meets the recommended standards. And you shouldn't have to pay for it either.

Rocky12 · 14/07/2011 21:45

I think you should be able to choose but taking 2 midwives away from the hospital must not be good for staffing.

If the worst happens all this - I am just a few minutes away from hospital - do you really think ambulances are on standby on the off chance that you need them. 1st baby is unwise I think for a home birth.

And yes, I do know that MW's attend the birth. From a cost point of view those MW's are now not available to attend to other women - there must be a risk in these current times for the women that are in hospital if MW's are in someone's house. Bit like a home visit from a doc. They can see what 5-7 people in the time they would take to visit someone who insisted on a home visit.

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 21:46

If Riven's chances of something going wrong were so high why would the midwives have allowed or encouraged her to labour at home?

I think you are making some generalisations about first time mums and hospital births there.

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 21:49

I think they can only advise you WineAndPizza. They can't actually stop you having a hb I don't think. I mean - how would they?

Rocky12 · 14/07/2011 21:49

Spud - you had a great home birth experience but please dont preach to people about the big bad hospitals. Let people make their own decisions.

Orbinator · 14/07/2011 21:50

Rocky if you read the thread it saves the NHS thousands every time a home birth is chosen. There are also plenty of midwives trained up to take jobs but no funding by NHS with a rising birth rate. This is not the problem of those who home birth, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if HB's aren't soon being encouraged to save the NHS money.

spudulika · 14/07/2011 21:51

Hairy - I'm not arguing that there won't be some women who give birth at home who would have had a better outcome if they'd given birth in hospital.

But overall the neonatal outcomes are the same. Logically this means some babies die BECAUSE THEIR MOTHERS GAVE BIRTH IN HOSPITAL.

D'ya get it?

If this wasn't the case, overall you'd see higher neonatal mortality and morbidity associated with homebirth.

And you don't.

itsastrawpoll · 14/07/2011 21:51

Has riven contributed to this thread? WHy are people discussing her DD's birth so openly on this thread (I know she's talked about it on here before)? I don't think she should be the 'case study' for this thread unless she's consented to that (apologies if she has)

Rocky12 · 14/07/2011 21:52

With the NHS in the state it is with less and less staff it there might be less and less choice for us. I chose to save up and opt out of the NHS for my 2nd because I didnt like what was happening.

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 21:54

Spud if you had been one of the small minority who needed a section and you didn't make it to the hospital in time would you still be raving about how safe hbs are for the majority of women because that's what the stats say?
My hospital experience couldn't have been more different than you describe. I was never left alone with my first dd, I found that the midwives were all in favour of encouraging me to move around. I had no intervention and normal length labours. There is no reason why hospitals have to be as you describe.

itsastrawpoll · 14/07/2011 21:55

Right I've just read Riven's posts on this thread.

Spudulika said:

"Riven had a homebirth following a previous caesarean. She had an additional chance of something going badly wrong."

Now I knew that already, but Riven hasn't said that on this thread. I don't think it's your place Spudulika to start tracking RIven's obstetric history through the thread and to for people to then be asking about what her m/w's etc were thinking.

Have a bit of respect eh? Not your story.

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 21:56

Hairy - couldn't agree more.

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 21:57

But the reasons you give for things going wrong in hospitals can be rectified. Surely this would be the best of both worlds?

Tangle · 14/07/2011 21:57

HairyFrotter
"You do take a chance that you are not one of the unlucky, none average, minority who does unpredictably have an emergency situation though. Those people would be better off in hospital. And the fact that there are very few of them would not make their experience any less devastating."

You're completely correct. I am living through that devastating experience of making a decision and, possibly as a direct consequence, having to bury my baby who never lived to take a breath.

Although it was and is devastating, I can look back at the decision we made and see why we made it - and for us, at that time and with the information available, it was the right decision. Do I wish things had turned out differently? Of course I do. But I can look back and say that, if I were in the same place it is incredibly likely that I would make the same decision. And knowing that it was my decision and not one forced upon me is one of the few things that has allowed me to cope with what has happened.

What do we become if we take away that right to choose? Do we really want the model of care seen in some US states where women have to sign away all right to even ask questions before they are admitted to a labour ward?

I will fight tooth and nail to preserve the situation where, as a mentally competent adult, I have the legal right to decline any medical intervention I don't agree with. And for the record, I did agree to just about every medical intervention recommended when I had a hospital birth and I did it with good grace - because the MW took the time and trouble to make sure we understood fully what and why they were recommending.

Re. "If I'd had my baby at home I/my baby would have died". When we were planning a HB for DC1 (and talking about it with friends afterwards) we heard a number of stories along these lines. Every single last one turned out to relate to a birth whereby either the mother was mis-informed ("My DS was breech so we'd have died at home" - not a foregone conclusion by any stretch) or where an emergency situation was created in hospital through early warning signs (which the parents were aware of, sometimes on an instinctive level) not being acted upon - either through lack of MWs on the ground or because "they're only the parents". That said, I do believe that there some instances where it is completely true that the baby would have died had the labour been at home - but from my experience they are far far fewer than the usage of the phrase would suggest.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 14/07/2011 21:58

I didnt take two midwives away from the hospital. they are community midwives and part of their job is to be at homebirths.

they were with me for about 3 hours. One left after that and the other did the paperwork.

They were not at the hosptial with women in labour, got a call from me and dumped everything to rush to my aid.

When I had DS1 at hospital the midwive was with me for hours and hours and hours. DD took bloody days!

DCs 4 & 5 a couple of hours each once the mws were there.

No peadiatricians either. MY gp popped in the next day to check baby over and I got a few visits from the MW.

How could that be more expensive than a hosptial birth?

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 22:01

I'm so sorry Tangle Sad

I'm all for choice. I'm in no way advocating that women be forced into hospitals. It's just that I wouldn't want a hb but nor would I want to give birth in a hospital like spud has described.

Rocky12 · 14/07/2011 22:01

Spud, please dont use Riven's previous c section (which I didnt know about). Home births are not the b all and end all of everything. Stop ramming it down our throats. Great - you had a good experience but hospitals are there for a reason.

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 22:05

Tangle - I'm so sorry for your loss.

I agree that women should absolutely have the right to make the choice they feel is best for them.

spudulika · 14/07/2011 22:05

"Spud - you had a great home birth experience but please dont preach to people about the big bad hospitals. Let people make their own decisions."

Errr, where did that come from. We're debating the risks and benefits of different birth environments and types of care.

I'm making a case for homebirths by pointing out the KNOWN problems associated with birthing in a medical environment.

"If Riven's chances of something going wrong were so high why would the midwives have allowed or encouraged her to labour at home? "

There is no such thing as 'allow' when it comes to a woman's choice to give birth out of hospital. If a woman requests it, and understands the risks then she'll usually be accommodated if she pursues it. HBAC is actually usually safe - women are less likely to experience scar rupture at home than in hospital because their labours tend to be shorter. Riven just got unlucky.

"I think you should be able to choose but taking 2 midwives away from the hospital must not be good for staffing."

Many areas have a dedicated homebirth team who wouldn't be working on labour ward anyway. If labour ward is short staffed they usually snaffle staff from antenatal or postnatal, then call in agency staff to plug the gap.

Would like to ask by the way, do you think that epidurals should be restricted for low risk women? Given that maternity may well be sharing an anaesthetist with ITU. And not to forget all those high risk mums - the ones with pre-eclampsia, clotting disorders, OC etc, who might need very quick access to theatre.

And then what about all the additional emcs that happen to low risk women giving birth in hospital? Doesn't that put higher risk women in danger?

No - low risk mums birthing in hospital, as a group, are gobbling up more theatre time, bed space and medical input than mums giving birth at home.

Rocky12 · 14/07/2011 22:07

Riven just got unlucky - well that's OK then, sure she feels much better now. You seem very knowledable considering that you dont see hospitals in a very good light even down to knowing how they staff themselves and what staff they use from what units

itsastrawpoll · 14/07/2011 22:08

Wow Spudulika, you are being incredibly crass now.

Has anyone seen tittytittybangbang btw? She normally pops up on these threads.