Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Home births are irresponsible

373 replies

LadyShapes · 14/07/2011 09:05

Did anyone see the start of Lorraine at about 8.30? They were talking about what's in the news and one of the stories was about how more women should have home births. The delighful guest they had on to talk about it said that she thought home births were irresponsible and dangerous. She also said she thought natural births were a load of rubbish and she just wanted to be in hospital and have medical intervention (paraphrasing). Oh and she wouldn't have a home birth because she has cream carpets. The other guest just agreed with her, so the that was the extent of the discussion.

Is it me? AIBU to think they shouldn't discuss news stories unless the guests have some kind of informed opinion (I mean, all the infomation I have had from my midwife tells me about the benefits of home births and a natural birth as well as the risks), or they should have read more than just the headline. Or AIBU to be watching Lorraine and hoping for some kind of balanced discussion.

OP posts:
LaWeasleyAintWeaselyAnymore · 15/07/2011 13:15

Are they really spud?

I'm such a statistic.

Oh well... I don't mind going in to hosital if there is a problem - I'm not anti-medical at all, I had DD in hospital and was happy with that, she emerged alive and unscathed which is the most important part - but I was panicky and could feel control slipping away (not in terms of decision making, as I say my MWs were fantastic - but I couldn't keep perspective on the pain) and I hated it.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell · 15/07/2011 13:55

Tangle, when I was told that I HAD to be induced at exactly 40 weeks due to gestational diabetes, I asked the GP (who wasn't my usual provider, but was one of the GPs who deliver at the hospital in which i was booked) if she could point me towards any statistics re: the risks of going 'overdue' with well controlled GD so I could weigh them up against the risk of induction -> cascade of interventions -> etc.

I got a look of utter disbelief that I'd had the temerity to ask. Followed by an assertion that the information was in medical journals and therefore I wouldn't be able to parse the terminology and understand it properly. When I pointed out that I was a medical negligence lawyer, and therefore used to reading specialist medical reports, I got "well all my sources would be behind paywalls so not available to you". End of discussion.

So, yeah. I wasn't necessarily someone who distrusted the medical establishment, until then! (I'm still not, as a knee-jerk reaction, but I do insist on having the information in my own hot little hands).

HairyFrotter · 15/07/2011 14:00

Spud. If you had an excellent local nhs hospital that statistically had better outcomes for mother/child than local home births would you still opt for a home birth?

spudulika · 15/07/2011 14:40

As I had gestational diabetes in my pregnancy - yes. But only if I could take my own midwife with me! (I did tranfer in with my third and did exactly this)

spudulika · 15/07/2011 14:42

But got nowt to do with stats. It's about not being bullied and expected to conform to hospital protocols. And about having someone look after me that I know and trust.

Kayzr · 15/07/2011 15:42

I'd just like to go back to DialM's post. I did have a scan to check DS2's position before I got the final ok for my homebirth and so did everyone I know that's had one.

DialMforMummy · 15/07/2011 16:03

well the latest scan I had was at 20 weeks. Once bitten twice shy, next time I'll move heaven and earth to have one done closer to the dd.

DialMforMummy · 15/07/2011 16:03

dd as in due date!

DitaVonCheese · 15/07/2011 16:15

I'm booked for a HB, due date is Monday. The last scan I had was around 30ish weeks, which was a growth scan as MW was concerned that I was measuring small for dates, otherwise it would have been the 20 week one. She did think DS might have gone breech a little while ago and talked about a scan but was then happy that she'd found the head tucked down in my pelvis.

Tbh I am really torn about what I'd do if he did go breech - would probably end up with a CS but would at least like the chance to try to turn him first.

I'm a bit surprised that so many people are so sure that the reason for HBs being promoted is to cut costs, not because of the better outcomes for mothers and babies (or indeed both these factors). I've known many MWs who are very keen on HB and I can't believe that all of them are simply concerned with saving their employers money Confused

Kayzr · 15/07/2011 16:20

I had one a week before the due date. I was told that you had to have one before they agree to let you have a home birth. I thought it was a national thing as I know other people that have been told that. But obviously not then.

DitaVonCheese · 15/07/2011 16:25

Not here (in the NW) - was also booked in for a HB with DD in a different hospital/area (20 miles away) and no late scan there either. Would be nice I guess but am not too bothered about it. DD went back to back which I didn't know until got to hospital at 7 cm dilated, but went surprisingly well despite that; hoping this one doesn't turn though!

sweetness86 · 15/07/2011 16:33

I dont agree or disagree with home births but I had two great pregnancys no issues but emergencys at the end when both my babies had pooed whilst inside and DS1 wasnt breathing it was so scary and Imagine it would of been worse at home plus I nearly had to have an emergency C section if labour had lasted another 10 mins so after both those experinces I wouldnt consider home birth but each to their own.

Flisspaps · 15/07/2011 16:47

Kayzr I had no such scan after 20 weeks, same as DialMforMummy, it's definitely not a national thing.

I would have liked one though, I firmly believe that DD's refusal to exit without eviction being served on her was due to her being in a strange position.

Bue · 15/07/2011 16:57

Dita as a student midwife, I definitely don't think the reason home births are being offered is down to costs (though they are cheaper)! Most students and midwives I know are very keen on HB, and you are right that it's not because they want to save the trust pennies. They wouldn't actually give a toss about that.

LaWeasleyAintWeaselyAnymore · 15/07/2011 17:16

I don't think MWs have homebirth targets because of money - they just mostly seem to like them.

I think it's probably the reason PCTs have targets though.

Kayzr · 15/07/2011 17:31

I think it would make sense if everyone wanting a homebirth was given a scan just before the due date. I was told I'd have it a week before if I hadn't had him before then. It was only about 2 minutes long to check he was derfinetly head down. It would surely solve some of the cases where women have had to transfer to hospital.

Bue · 15/07/2011 17:37

Well here's what the Skeptical OB thinks about RCOG's proposals for more home births in the UK: Times

Warning: she is an American OB/GYN who is VERY anti-homebirth / natural birth.

spudulika · 15/07/2011 18:00

I particularly love this bit"

"In contrast to the hospital, where one midwife can care for multiple women in various stages of labour, home birth requires two midwives to care for one woman who may be in labour for many hours."

Is that supposed to make readers think homebirth is a BAD thing? Grin

Also obvious it's written by someone with no actual experience of homebirth - or she'd know that the second midwife is usually only in attendance for an hour or so and the primary midwife usually only stays once the mother is in advanced labour.

HairyFrotter · 15/07/2011 18:08

It didn't particularly bother me that I didn't 'know' the midwives who cared for me in hospital. I don't think I 'knew' my antenatal midwife tbh. It takes a bit more than 10 minute monthly visits for me to know and trust someone. Unless everyone is going to become great personal friends with their mw I don't see why it's an issue tbh.

Tangle · 15/07/2011 18:22

Having read Amy Tuteur's work before, I'd have been amazed if it had been anything else!

I've given up expecting her to consider evidence that might not support her point of view - I'm just disapointed that The Times have chosen to publish an article that will do everything to encourage the public to believe that changes being proposed to maternity services in particular, and the NHS in general, are being driven purely in an effort to cut costs. Would I be naive to hope that, somewhere, they presented the rational that the proposed changes could result in improved care?

HairyFrotter · 15/07/2011 18:54

Nah it's Cameron cutting costs. Any improvement in care will be a happy coincidence.

Bue · 15/07/2011 19:09

Me too, Tangle. The only thing I can think is that they went with her because they deliberately wanted to be provocative, or they couldn't find a British OB GYN who thinks it's a bad idea! I can't imagine Amy Tuteur knows anything about the NHS or UK maternity care.

DitaVonCheese · 15/07/2011 19:12

Thanks Bue.

This thread does seem to have swung from HBs-are-selfish-because-they-take-up-expensive-resources to it's-just-the-govt-trying-to-save-money when it turned out they were cheaper! It could be Cameron cutting costs were it not for the fact that HBs have been promoted by MWs for much longer than he's been in charge. Obviously he's not the only politician with an interest in saving money but I still think it's just possible that the money-saving is merely a happy side effect alongside better outcomes etc.

Okay, can hear DH yelling at misbehaving DD so have completely lost my train of thought and should go help out ...

HairyFrotter · 15/07/2011 19:16

I for one was aware they were cheaper before I read this thread. If you think that any government would be pushing them if they were more expensive I think you are naive.

fastweb · 15/07/2011 19:51

Tangle

"HB is not safe

Yes I do think the study has been misused in that manner by some.

Birth is more risky if the mother is malnourished and has received no antenatal care - regardless of the place of birth

I agree, but I would be inclined to lean towards that overall if large numbers of malnourished, antenatal care free women gave birth in hospital the number of poor outcomes might be minimised. Giving birth outside of a hospital setting in those circs smacks of double jeopardy. But I fully admit that is hunch, not data.

There must be pockets in the UK of social issues leading to poor diet and a certain ambivalence towards getting antenatal care, combined with a norm of giving birth in hospital. Is there anything that can be gleaned there to form some kind of comparison with the Rotterdam findings ?

I accept that there are some women in the UK who do turn their backs on antenatal care for exactly the reasons you give - but to my knowledge they are a very small minority and I'm very dubious that this is the root cause of the problem in Rotterdam.

I?m unconvinced that attitudes such as ?pregnancy is not a pathology? and a considerable reverence for natural birth are not informing the prenatal attitudes and practises of midwives in Rotterdam.

They don?t strike me as being particularly proactive about prenatal testing (see below). That combined with the hard line on natural birth (to the point there has been a system created where it is financially punitive to attempt to get your mitts on a medicalised birth cos you don?t want a home birth, your insurance may not cover a hospital birth if it is not considered a medical necessity) does ring alarm bells for me.

If they are not proactive about prenatal testing then women with financial stumbling blocks (insurance issues keep being mentioned) or socially based resistance to prenatal oversight may see that laid back attitude as being a an indicator that prenatal care is just not a big enough a deal to be worth the hassle, or getting past their disinclination.

I think having to ask for testing rather than it being offered is perhaps a bigger deal than it might seem on the surface.

---
?Ante-natal care
Ante-natal care is usually delivered at the consulting rooms of your chosen carer. It follows the common pattern of monthly assessment until 32 weeks, providing all remains normal and thereafter more frequently.
Ultrasound scans are not routinely performed if you are under the care of a midwife. Everyone is entitled to one ultrasound scan to determine dates. This is not always offered and it is best to ask if not mentioned at your first visit to the midwife. If the midwife has no reason for concern you will not have another scan during your pregnancy. This can be rather strange and it is best to discuss it with your midwife. They are usually very flexible.
Blood tests are done routinely. If you want to know what they all are, just ask your carer. As with most things, information is not freely offered but given when requested.
Amniocentesis (buikprikje) or villi biopsy (vlokkenstest) are available when appropriate. Insurance will cover the cost of the investigation if it is medically recommended. You may have to travel to a teaching hospital for such special requests.

Having a Baby - InTouch Rotterdam the Netherlands

---

The above and in amatter of minutes with google be able to find one of the higher profile Rotterdam midwives floating around the net talking about ?Unnecesareans? in the style of your slightly more radical natural birth proponent , isn?t proof of anything.

But it does leave me room to think my concerns are not completely without a hint of potential foundation.

?Arguably, this is exactly what has happened with hospital birth in the UK - it has become normalised and poor outcomes are increasing as the system cannot cope with the rising load?

I wouldn?t disagree at all. During the period of transition the normalisation of hospital birth can?t NOT have impacted both the ability to provide care and the attitudes that lie behind the care proffered.

Perhaps the pace at which it took place and the slightly evangelical enthusiasm behind it led to a lack of forward planning which may have led to a ?hangover? of said transition evident in the system today.

(glowers menacingly at mental image of entire hospital staff, bar the 2 nice midwives who were determined that I wasn?t going to be a statistic in the name of birthing philosophy).

With any future changes it would be nice if we could actively take steps to avoid the mistakes of the past.

?Yes, of course everyone wants a birth to end with a healthy mum and a healthy baby but to me the mental health of the mother is an integral part of that and one that is too often ignored or trivialised.?

Absolute agree. I don?t think anybody is saying ?don?t care about the baby, give me the experience I want? regardless of whether they want a homebirth or an elective C-section without evident medical grounds.

What I think they are saying is all risks considered, I would like my sanity\emotional well being to be more than an irrelevant afterthought that can be dismissed on a whim.

I think that relates to women wanting home birth, epidurals, elective c-sections and everything else you can pick in between.

Swipe left for the next trending thread