To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

bringme

I love dealing with real live clients, that's one of the best bits of the job. And being called "bitch" by some of the scroats I've banged up obv

I got an Inns scholarship, bar school was only £4,000, I got a pupillage award of £10k but I still had to take out professional loan of £15k to get me through the two years it took to establish income stream. Xenia is talking about a situation which applies to very, very few lucky pupils.

There is no way I would consider the Bar now if I was just starting out- it would be utterly beyond me financially. The professional loans you could get ten years ago don't exist now.

Plus I would be very wary of starting now with a child in tow. You have to spend a few years getting established and doing whatever crap the clerks throw your way. Its hard work and not family friendly.

If you can get an offer of pupillage from a good set you will have to think hard about what happens if they don't take you on - competition is fierce for third sixes.

I am glad I stuck it out because I love the variety, the sense of being my own boss and deciding when I will work. But I wouldn't have gone for it had it meant being saddled with 50k debt.

It does apply to some and mym daughter was sponsored by a law firm and just about every good solicitor candidate who gets a job at a good firm will be sponsored. Most of the others on the course will be headed for low pay or never to qualify. I accept it is slightly different at the bar (less sponsorship). I thought some chambers help pupils too in the first year.

It is absolutel wonderful things are competitive. Hardly anyone can do the work I do because they aren't good enough so I am paid an hour what others work all week to earn the minimum weekly wage. Thus you get the best people. Thus clients are best served. This is a market economy and we are very lucky it operates. If the alsorans got through and competition were not fierce there would be something seriously wrong.

Totally agree with you on your second para Xenia.

But the bar is totally different as far as "sponsoring" or funding goes.

Most LPC students don't get sponsored but arguably they should not start the course if they aren't unless they want to take that risk or have a firm lined up even if it isn't sponsoring them. I still wouldn't restrict their entry to the course though as they are adult and can take that financial risk without funding if they choose.

It's a better bet than planing to work in your local Tesco for 40 years.

I also agree that I don't wring my hands and wail about those who are 'not good enough' failing to get pupillage or training contracts.

But where I part company with Xenia is her blithe assertions that its all absolutely fine and if you have any talent this will be recognised and rewarded with sponsorship thru training.

I can't speak for solicitors but I know that is mostly crap when applied to the Bar.

I think at the Bar there is now a real risk that only those with private means or support from wealthy parents will be able to contemplate entering the profession. There are scholarships and some Chambers do pay good rates for pupils, but this will certainly not cover every bright student who would have made an excellent barrister.

the fact that Bar School now costs just shy of £20K is simply ridiculous. We all used to bitch about it when it was only £4K - it certainly wasn't worth that.

I am all for meritocracy but not at the expense of wilfull blindness towards the financial realities for many.

I think at the Bar there is now a real risk that only those with private means or support from wealthy parents will be able to contemplate entering the profession.

Sadly, Spero I think this has been pretty much the case for quite a while now - and it's generally recognised as such.

In fact, entry to virtually all of the "professions" is dominated by those from wealthy (or "middle class") backgrounds. I don't know much about law, but I've heard that the Bar exams are actually relatively easy compared to the 2:1 (minimum) degree requirements (meaning that the "selective" aspect is left with Chambers rather than the entry system) and getting a pupillage is going to be infinitely easier with the "right" contacts!

That's part of the irony, moonferret
Bar exams are a cakewalk compared to other aspects of training...

I think the main issue might be that the legal professions are changing shape (even more since LSA 2007), and it's difficult enough for those in already in the professions to see how things will pan out in a few years time, even harder for those entering the profession to make good decisions about training.

That said, it's a no brainer just to say the bar's impenetrable, don't even consider it, when potentially it's still an amazing profession.

All I can say, is that in 1994 when I was called it was just about possible for someone with no means to get in - BUT I did it with LEA grant, scholarship and loan. My parents gave me £200 to pay off some of my overdraft and that was the extent of their help!

There are no LEA grants or loans now. So things have got much, much worse. I was probably the last generation who could make it that way.

But as Xenia will probably point out, this is simply whingeing and the aisles of Tescos await. Doesn't she ever feel a bit uneasy about where this will lead us? that ONLY the monied middle classes will be able to afford to enter the professions?

Xenia, what DO you do?

Xenia spouts off on Mumsnet, Teenie. I think she is a figment of her own imagination.

Perhaps someone should send this thread to the President of the Bar Council and ask for a comment ..... and the Law Soc

My son has just done his law conversion and wants to be a barrister.

He has a good degree from Oxford. He has had some experience (clerking, shadowing). He doesn't want to be a solicitor or work for a large corporate.

He is young, no family, based in London, clever and confident. He is also under no illusion about the difficulty and expense of it all.

We have encouraged him and supported him as much as we can. After all, nothing ventured nothing gained. He might not succeed thats true, but on the other hand he might end up with a great career. Even in a shrinking profession some people do make it (speaking as someone in a shrinking profession who has just had a 'dream job' for 20 years and now has another).

I think OP you should follow your dream.

If the Bar is as impossible as I remember, then you could always qualify as a solicitor then become a High Court Advocate. You don't officially become a Barrister until you gain tenancy or dine at the Inns but effectively you're doing the same job as a Barrister. It will take you a good few years before you're at a stage to be competent to do the exam though, as you'll need a few years within the Courts to gain knowledge and experience.

However, as I've said previously training contracts are rare (even in the stupid law sector of crime ). So it wont be an easy route whatever you do. Xenia is right that some law firms fund LPCs but I've not heard of a Chambers funding the BVC. But I'm not in the business as long as Xenia so this could have been the case a few years ago.

Plus, it tends to be the commercial firms who do this. DH was lucky enough to be picked by a top ten law firm, but again they picked him the minute his degree finished (which was a long time ago), then funded his LPC and he was tied in with them as a result.

Good luck with any decision you make.

I don't agree. The very first chambers I checked their site says:

Pupillage at XYZ Chambers carries an award for 2011/2012 of £60,000. Part of this can be drawn down during the BPTC year (subject to Chambers' approval), with the remainder being paid in monthly instalments from September to June. Chambers also pays for all compulsory courses during pupillage and for necessary travel expenses outside London.

Often those who apply to us do not appreciate the extent of the financial rewards even in the early days of tenancy. Experience indicates that a new tenant at XYZ Chambers will soon find his or her earnings matching or exceeding those of contemporaries elsewhere at the Bar or at City solicitors' firms. In recent years, average income of our new tenants in their first year has exceeded £100,000 (in many cases by a considerable margin).

Chambers offers all new tenants an interest-free loan of £50,000, payable during the first six months of tenancy in monthly instalments. The loan is repayable from receipts, once the level of receipts has exceeded £80,000. Junior tenants are not required to pay room rent or Chambers' expenses in the first year of practice or until receipts total £80,000, whichever is the sooner. Chambers also offers generous financial arrangements for those members who wish to take maternity and paternity leave (for further details please go to the Equal Opportunities section of the Pupillage and Tenancy pages)."

I have just been told that bar school this year is £16k so not quite as bad as I thought but stll way,way beyond most people.

Irishbird - completely agree. Bvc cost shocking.

Frillyflower - as I have said, I am all for following your dreams, regrets are horrible things. But your son is young, energetic and has no children to worry about. He will be able to stay up all night prepping then leave at crack of Dawn to schlep to some godforsaken mags court on a bail application for which he may be paid peanuts six months later.

It is very hard to do that with a family.

I think all of us currently practising would say we do mainly enjoy our jobs but we are very aware of the difficulties and might think twice if we were trying to get started in current climate.

I think op or anyone else in her position is very wise to canvass as much opinion as possible so her choice is based on sound understanding of what awaits.

Which chambers was that Xenia? A very wealthy one I would imagine.

hello princessglitter

I am due to start my part-time GDL in September - I am just waiting to hear if I am going to get a bursary from work. I have been a social worker for 15 years and working in children's advocacy for the last three - I would LOVE to be a barrister - I am really excited by family law and have a real passion in this area. Perhaps I am naive, but I think I have loads to offer a firm/chambers. When I looked around the room for the GDL open day I saw alot of young faces sitting with their mums (who were just a tad older than me). Nobody asked any questions except their mums - I thought to myself "if this is my competition - bring it on". No disrespect to the youngies - but I have worked since I was 17, travelled round the world, worked in child protection for 15 years and brought up three kids. I can probably work harder and smarter than anyone I know with a 1st from Oxbridge. I do have a supportive partner, but he works full time aswell.

All the advice from practitioners is of course, well meaning and accurate. However I would say exactly the same thing to anyone contemplating a change of career to a social worker - DON"T DO IT!!

However - its the money situation......and I am not sure I have the guts to put my financial security on the line.......I wish there was a career fairy who could leave a fat wedge under my pillow in return for my hard work and dedication!

Good luck and just take small steps like me - GDL part time and then see what happens.......

Spero - you are right of course. I was forgetting the OH has family life to consider and all this advice useful.

Would you still think twice about Bar in retrospect if you are young person starting out? Someone has to be barrister after all!

Xenia is talking about a minority of sets. For most of us at the bar, we were not offered this. Please let there be some reality in this discussion. Unless you are doing commercial work, this will not be your world. And commercial work is dull and dry. The stuff that is interesting does not often offer huge financial rewards.

Frillyflower I just couldn't afford it now. I got money from my Inn but I don't know if their awards have kept pace with the massive inflation re course fees.

I reckon if I was starting out now I would need £30k to cover bar school year and then I would need a hefty pupillage award to get me through that year. Then you have to wait for your fees to come in.

I think it is easy for people like Xenia to simply forget how immensely privileged and unusual their positions are.

If I was starting out young and single now I would probably try and go the solicitors route with view to swapping over after five years building up experience and income.

If I was starting out at bar in my 30s with young children unless I had a millionaire spouse and/or £50k to spare I would not remotely consider it.

It was the last one I was at. I don't want to say which. I only use good ones. So what we are saying is that the really brilliant do get funded wherever they are from. If you're a little bit more mediocre then you won't be. I don't have am ajor problem with that. You have a student lona for your first degree and don't pay a penny in fees for that (unless and until you earn) so you only then have to cover one year of fees.

Also if you aren't very good and wouldn't get into a very good set which would pay may be you'd be better doing something else anywhere.