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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as [2]

1007 replies

garlicnutter · 04/07/2011 15:37

... not a feminist?

Since I killed the old one.

OP posts:
MillyR · 05/07/2011 11:36

Bennifer, it is like the Judean People's Front in the Life of Brian.

Omigawd · 05/07/2011 11:36

Now let me think...what was it we all thought about the MN Feministas that made us never boher going there.

Oh yes - they were strident, insulting, wouldn't listen, were always right and often were totally whacko didnt always make sense.

Now, why did we all think that :)

Hullygully · 05/07/2011 11:37

Is it time for the limerick?

Hullygully · 05/07/2011 11:37

People's Front of Judea if you don't mind

LeninGrad · 05/07/2011 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Carminagetsprimal · 05/07/2011 11:39

Fuck off -. we're the peoples' front of Judea

Carminagetsprimal · 05/07/2011 11:39

Beat me too it - lololololo

Hullygully · 05/07/2011 11:39

I am the New Judean People's Front

Omigawd · 05/07/2011 11:41

Oh yes, a limerick, please yes !!

Can it end with "never got shagged was a mystery". Please! Please!

Hullygully · 05/07/2011 11:42

That is so bad I have got to go and hoover.

MarySueFTW · 05/07/2011 11:45

"marysue you're a great expert on mn and how things go considering you only joined 5 days ago along with jamez."

How am I a great expert? Remember I was the one hoping this thread would continue to about feminism and said I wasn't really qualified to comment about the history of the feminist section or its regulars. Only dittany has made a personal impression due to our interaction.

Who is jamez?

Carminagetsprimal · 05/07/2011 11:45

It's too early for limericks

I need a few magners first -

Carminagetsprimal · 05/07/2011 11:46

Appalling typos .>

lenak · 05/07/2011 12:00

Milly ?People don't like the feminist section because they believe in egalitarianism and want to discuss how the rights of different people interact, rather than focus on women. I agree that it is incredibly important and a major issue in our society. Some of you are clearly believers or activists in this area. It seems odd that you don't have a section on this, or even the occasional thread. There do seem to be frequent threads on MN about poverty, race, gender, sexual orientation and disability where the most terrible remarks are made and there seems to be very little support for those groups other than that which comes from the same few people. This seems particularly the case with disability and special needs, so I do think this whole egalitarianism issue could do with a lot of discussion.?
People don?t dislike the feminist section because they are egalitarian just as egalitarians do not dislike feminism. People dislike the feminist section because of the tone and the behaviour of some posters on there. It may be down to personality clashes, misunderstandings or whatever, but it is how people feel and on this thread many people have said they feel this way ? some of whom self-identify as feminists and not egalitarians.
Egalitarians do not need their own section because the tennnants of equalism run through all aspects of life and egalitarian issues can be discussed wherever they arise. It is still more of a philosophy than political although egalitarian activism is on the increase, it is not yet a ?movement?. We do have occasional threads where egalitarianism can be discussed (such as this one) but constantly end up trying to argue our points of view with feminists who are determined to set equalism up in opposition to feminism despite the fact that there is a lot of common ground. Equalism supports feminism when it comes to gender equality, the difference is, equalists only see feminism as part of a much wider set of issues and therefore do not self-identify as feminists because for an equalist, it can feel too narrow. It is that simple ? there is nothing sinister about it.
The feminist boards would be a great place to discuss aspects where egalitarianism and feminism meet, to find common ground and identify ways in which the two could work together to actually achieve something, but whenever equalism is mentioned on the feminist boards you get comments like this:
?Equalism is a term which means "Let's all pretend everyone is equal now and go into denial about the obvious inequality around us."? HerBeX ?who has admitted on this thread that she doesn?t understand what equalism actually is and from this quote clearly doesn?t.
?I tend to think that if people shy away from the word 'feminism' then it means that they're unwilling to accept that women are oppressed. Using a gender-neutral term seems like a tactic to mask the reality, iyswim.? Prolesworth ? again a blatant misunderstanding of why equalists do not usually refer to themselves as feminists.
?I think - bollocks to that.

Do you need an argument as well?..... Me too Prolesworth. It's a lot harder to say "I don't support women's liberation, I'm an equalist".

Equalist is a meaningless term that is about maintaining the status quo.? Dittany ? helpful Hmm in the first instance and again a wilful ignorance of what people who call themselves equalists actually believe. All quotes from the first page of this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1155502-Feminism-is-dead-long-live-Equalism-What-do-you-think
Equalists do not want to re-brand feminism, we are not opposed to feminism (although we may not agree with some aspects of it ? but then some feminists don?t agree with each other either). We just see it as only one part of the whole picture. It is only ever feminists who set equalism up in opposition to feminism, most equalists see at least some aspects of it as helpful and useful and would like to work with feminists to achieve common goals - however, it becomes impossible when you get called an anti-feminist or it is implied you hold misogynistic views just because you say you are not a feminist.

lenak · 05/07/2011 12:02

Oh jeez - I'll repost that with paragraphs:

Milly ?People don't like the feminist section because they believe in egalitarianism and want to discuss how the rights of different people interact, rather than focus on women. I agree that it is incredibly important and a major issue in our society. Some of you are clearly believers or activists in this area. It seems odd that you don't have a section on this, or even the occasional thread. There do seem to be frequent threads on MN about poverty, race, gender, sexual orientation and disability where the most terrible remarks are made and there seems to be very little support for those groups other than that which comes from the same few people. This seems particularly the case with disability and special needs, so I do think this whole egalitarianism issue could do with a lot of discussion.?

People don?t dislike the feminist section because they are egalitarian just as egalitarians do not dislike feminism. People dislike the feminist section because of the tone and the behaviour of some posters on there. It may be down to personality clashes, misunderstandings or whatever, but it is how people feel and on this thread many people have said they feel this way ? some of whom self-identify as feminists and not egalitarians.

Egalitarians do not need their own section because the tennnants of equalism run through all aspects of life and egalitarian issues can be discussed wherever they arise. It is still more of a philosophy than political although egalitarian activism is on the increase, it is not yet a ?movement?. We do have occasional threads where egalitarianism can be discussed (such as this one) but constantly end up trying to argue our points of view with feminists who are determined to set equalism up in opposition to feminism despite the fact that there is a lot of common ground. Equalism supports feminism when it comes to gender equality, the difference is, equalists only see feminism as part of a much wider set of issues and therefore do not self-identify as feminists because for an equalist, it can feel too narrow. It is that simple ? there is nothing sinister about it.

The feminist boards would be a great place to discuss aspects where egalitarianism and feminism meet on gender equality issued, to find common ground and identify ways in which the two could work together to actually achieve something, but whenever equalism is mentioned on the feminist boards you get comments like this:

?Equalism is a term which means "Let's all pretend everyone is equal now and go into denial about the obvious inequality around us."? HerBeX ?who has admitted on this thread that she doesn?t understand what equalism actually is and from this quote clearly doesn?t.

?I tend to think that if people shy away from the word 'feminism' then it means that they're unwilling to accept that women are oppressed. Using a gender-neutral term seems like a tactic to mask the reality, iyswim.? Prolesworth ? again a blatant misunderstanding of why equalists do not usually refer to themselves as feminists.

?I think - bollocks to that.

Do you need an argument as well?..... Me too Prolesworth. It's a lot harder to say "I don't support women's liberation, I'm an equalist".

Equalist is a meaningless term that is about maintaining the status quo.? Dittany ? helpful Hmm in the first instance and again a wilful ignorance of what people who call themselves equalists actually believe.

All quotes from the first page of this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1155502-Feminism-is-dead-long-live-Equalism-What-do-you-think

Equalists do not want to re-brand feminism, we are not opposed to feminism (although we may not agree with some aspects of it ? but then some feminists don?t agree with each other either). We just see it as only one part of the whole picture. It is only ever feminists who set equalism up in opposition to feminism, most equalists see at least some aspects of it as helpful and useful and would like to work with feminists to achieve common goals.

claig · 05/07/2011 12:14

I've never heard of equalism and equalists. Is it an MRA type word that they talk about on antimisandry.com?

antimisandry.com/chit-chat-main/treatise-equalism-why-feminists-not-equalists-10174.html

I've heard of egalitarianism. Is equalist a dumbed down form of the same thing or an MRA type movement?

Prolesworth · 05/07/2011 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

dittany · 05/07/2011 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prolesworth · 05/07/2011 12:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

claig · 05/07/2011 12:21

Is it an attempt to undermine feminism by implying that feminists do not believe in equality and only "equalists" do? Is that why the word "equalist" was chosen and invented rather than the existing term "egalitarian" - so that it would embed that concept into the minds of the naive.

Is it similar to why the word "progressive" is now so widely used? Is it just propaganda, spin and deception?

LeninGrad · 05/07/2011 12:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exoticfruits · 05/07/2011 12:29

The fact that there have been 1300 posts on this topics shows beyond any doubt there is a problem. Why can't the Radical Feminists recognise that?

I think that this is the main fact to come up. There is a huge problem and there shouldn't be.

When do lovely little boys become a power hungry part of the patriarchy? I just haven't found it yet

I can tell you when - or at least when some of them do - when they get told to 'man up' by fathers and other men, get packed off to schools where they are made to live a largely male existence and forced to play football. When little boys are encouraged to play fight and take up boxing because daddy wants them to be 'men'

I don't believe this. Firstly only a small percentage of DCs are privately educated and the number who go to an all boys boarding school must be minute. Schools actively foster equality.

I have yet to find a boy 'forced to play football'. My DS1 was brought up by me a single, football hating, mother who begrudged any time kicking a ball. He practised on his own, was good and loved it. DS3 doesn't like football, doesn't play and doesn't watch despite having a father and 2 brothers who like it. Most of his friends, probably all, like it. He doesn't feel any need to conform. Why should he?

I wouldn't want them to take up boxing and they haven't but I have yet to see any boy who doesn't like to play fight, or 'rough and tumble' when young.
What is wrong with it? It is what boys do when they have nothing else to do. Girls don't, on the whole. I hate it it but I recognised they loved it and left the room.

I think that far more is nature than nurture. I have observed my DS whose father died when he was a baby. He has the same mannerisms, same views and they are not things that I have told him-they are too trivial to mention.
Steve Biddulph's book is called 'Raising Boys' but the sub title is more important, it is 'How to help them become happy and well-balanced men'.
I don't think that you do that by denying that there are any gender differences.

claig · 05/07/2011 12:32

I get the impression that the whole 'equalist' thing is an MRA trick. Their latest tactic. It looks like they studied the progressives tricks and came up with a similar one of their own.

uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsDFb1_KblUebEgGEM43jvqACAx.;_ylv=3?qid=20080404082053AA53wX2&show=2#yan-answers

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 05/07/2011 12:32

I reckon so Claig.

If people's only problem with the feminist section is with a couple of the posters there (not specific ones, but there are always different people who get up your nose on a personal basis), rather than with the feminism part, why not just post there anyway? Then there will be more people and the ones who annoy you will be less prevalent.

But tbh I don't want to convince anyone on here to the feminist section if they don't want to be there. Post feminist stuff in chat or wherever you like, I am a feminist not a Mumsnet-feminist-sectionist and don't care a damn where people put it.

MarySueFTW · 05/07/2011 12:32

Equalism - personally, I heard the term (actually I thought I coined the term but apparently not!) a few days ago while discussing why I don't identify as a feminist. I have no idea how widespread the term is, but it seems it suits a lot of people. I don't see how criticizing it for not being a long established ideology makes much difference, and I echo what others keep saying, it seems like certain feminists really take the term badly, and accidentally or purposefully misrepresent it as thinking 'Oh everything's perfect and equal now.' Why on earth would there be a need for any cause for things to be equal if they already are? It clearly appeals to some people's unease with rooting for your team, right or wrong, and the idea that there are inequities, though not necessarily of the same type or magnitude, on both sides.

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