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AIBU?

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AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as [2]

1007 replies

garlicnutter · 04/07/2011 15:37

... not a feminist?

Since I killed the old one.

OP posts:
sunshineandbooks · 05/07/2011 08:55

HRH/Mary - thanks for your additions. I think this is turning into a useful discussion for both 'sides'.

I agree that many women would prefer to spend the early years of their child's life at home with that child. But women are not an ethnic minority. We number nearly 52% of the population. Surely a government should be acting for us, accepting the fact that it is not fair that half the population will suffer reduced career chances because of their biology? It is not a small problem affecting a small part of the population. The urge to have children is not a lifestyle choice in the same way as choosing to give up your car. We can choose when and how many children to have, but more than 82% of us have children - it is one of the driving forces behind the survival of our species. And those children are the responsibility of both parents, whoever ends up doing the day-to-day care. It is unfair to penalise women simply because they are the ones who bear them and (in the main) raise them. That time out should be recognised by society IMO and should not have such a long-term effect on the rest of a mother's life. I consider the issue of child-caring responsibilities and how they affect individual families to be an issue about the overall good of society, just as is the case with education and the NHS.

I think with regards to removing perpetrators, you would have to limit it to incidents when the police are called. There is some discussion about this in Parliament already, which I wholeheartedly support. In these cases, it is pretty obvious that abuse is going on - the police are arriving in the thick of it - and the likelihood of evicting an innocent person is pretty slim.

Slightly off on a tangent (and with extreme wariness following the Bristol Palin thread Wink) how you feel on this will depend on how high you believe the instances of false allegation are. Unfortunately, there is no large scale research into the instance of false allegations, so it's impossible to tell. I do think this is something that needs addressing. It would help both sides enormously to have some decent figures to work with and to take the guess work out of it. Of the research that has been done, however (e.g. Bancroft), it seems that false allegations are extremely rare. Whatever approach you take, someone can become an innocent victim - whether that's a man unfairly accused and evicted, or a woman who has to give up all her possessions when she is forced to flee her house with her children and subject them all to months of living in a refuge or B&B with no security and hardly any money. If you believe that only a small proportion of women lie (which I do) the lesser evil is to believe that they are telling the truth and change the law so that they have better protection. The number of alleged perpetrators unfairly treated will IMO be far fewer than the number of victims unfairly treated under the current system.

dittany · 05/07/2011 08:55

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MindyMacready · 05/07/2011 08:58

QED?

dittany · 05/07/2011 08:59

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sunshineandbooks · 05/07/2011 09:03

I'm sure it isn't dittany. Sad I accept that you have been over and over and over all the points I am making and I am always amazed that you come back time and time again to make them again. I don't know how you find the energy personally. I think in this thread it's become far too personal though, and I understand why you no longer want to participate. Sad

However, on the basis that other people will be reading this and thinking about it, I think it's worth me carrying on.

HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 05/07/2011 09:05

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Pagwatch · 05/07/2011 09:12

Perhaps the section should be re-named then?

Perhaps if it was called the radical feminism section there would be less angst and disconnect.

Because I think people like me - forged career in male dominated profession, three chider, carer -acutely aware of womens role as primary carers and the way that impoverishes many, history of child abuse/rape - would like to feel that feminism is an area intended to include, inform and educate me.
But some regular users here are saying that they wish it to serve those who already feel fully informed and wish the section to be a place to engage with those who are like minded.

Perhaps we could have radical feminism section
And feminism lite

Grin
HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 05/07/2011 09:14

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StayFrosty · 05/07/2011 09:18

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HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 05/07/2011 09:21

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Pagwatch · 05/07/2011 09:22

Well I am neither a feminist hating regular nor have I had a go at anyone either openly nor coyly.
Should there be no discussion because of how an external group will chose to interpret that discussion?

HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 05/07/2011 09:23

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HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 05/07/2011 09:28

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StayFrosty · 05/07/2011 09:31

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MarySueFTW · 05/07/2011 09:34

If anyone want to look at the DSK thread, titled 'Doubts On Maid's Credibility' it was me who relayed a theory I'd read that the maid was a prostitute and DSK didn't pay her... but as I repeatedly said, I have no idea what happened as I wasn't there. The thread apparently is only for everyone who definitely knows what happened, that he is guilty, and furthermore according to dittany, male prosecutors in rape trials routinely lose cases on purpose because they want to see rapists walk free.

dittany, rather than get 'fucking angry' with me for relaying that story, and fuming about how your reaction was going to be more proof that the feminist section is full of, er fucking angry feminists... why not just say calmly (because I can see it from a feminist pov) something like 'it's routine to rubbish a victims credibility, as we are discussing... and saying she worked as a prostitute is a predictable allegation. What is the evidence for this?'

maybe I shouldn't tell you how to post. Maybe your responses here and in that thread are your business, and how I post is also your business. Because as a feminist you are 'sick' of having to repeat yourself? Because the feminist section is just for you feminists who are always having to defend yourselves and it just gets so tiring that launching sweary tirades is unavoidable? Maybe there should be some kind of test you have to pass to get a password to post there? Keep out the riff-raff and 'trolls'?

LeninGrad · 05/07/2011 09:42

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Niecie · 05/07/2011 09:43

"Someone over there yesterday was on the DSK thread outlining how she thought that the victim was a lying prostitute. How is that acceptable in a feminist space? Yes it's acceptable everywhere else in misogyny land, but femnism is about supporting women who have been harmed by men, not attacking them. That's the sort of behaviour that gets a negative response."

You see this is what I don't get - why is it that you are allowed to forget the principle of law and evidence just because you are in the feminism section? Why are you happy to put up with double standards and not have them challenged? The feminism section somebody says a safe place to talk about the issues but do you really want to do that at the expense of truth or evidence?

DSK may be a lying scumbag but he hasn't been tried and convicted and we haven't seen the evidence there is against him. In the same way that a lying prostitute can still be a victim of rape, a scumbag adultering man can still be innocent of carrying out that rape. And before you go on with the no smoke without fire arguments, he has not been tried or convicted yet and we don't know the evidence against him. We haven't seen it, much as we would like to pretend we have. Chances are he did the crime but you have hung drawn and quartered him on the basis of what? Things you have read in the media.

You do yourself no favours with the attitude that all men who are accused of rape are guilty of it. A majority of them will be but some of them won't. Now you may want to sweep them aside for the sake of the sisterhood but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would rather we convicted the right people for the right crime.

If you want to do something challenge the poor conviction rates for rape, do it without stamping on the rights of the innocent and the rights everybody has for a fair trial - trial by media and trial by MN are not fair. It would give more crediability for your cause if you did.

Pagwatch · 05/07/2011 09:43

Fair enough stayfrosty Smile

Although if I am honest I have mostly been following the discussion between the people I recognise as regulars. Which is awful of me really....

nenevomito · 05/07/2011 09:45

pagwatch I like the idea of feminism lite Grin Getting a bit bored about explaining that I can be a feminist without liking / agreeing with all views held on the feminism board.

The first couple of pages of this new thread were enjoyable and then it all went a bit Pete Tong. No one is looking good now.

UsingMainlySpoons · 05/07/2011 09:49

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Niecie · 05/07/2011 09:51

Also regarding the point that abortion rights are constantly under threat - I am pro abortion. I think it should be the woman's right to chose and it should be made as simple as possible so long as certain checks are in place.

However, I don't agree there is any danger that right to an abortion will be removed. I do however think that the law needs to be reviewed from time to time and we need to consider what it is that we have the right to. If the abortion laws had not been challenged then we would still have the right to an abortion up to 28 weeks for all women. Given that babies are surviving even as young as 23 weeks in very few cases, and certain more often from 24 weeks onwards, lowering the limit for most abortions to 24 weeks was the right thing to do. We need to keep revisiting the law because things do change.

Hullygully · 05/07/2011 09:52
dittany · 05/07/2011 09:52

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Hullygully · 05/07/2011 09:53

I personally don't want the feminist section to be thought of as bullying, but usually on this kind of thread the people who make those accusations have said something questionable and have had that pointed out.

Excuse my succinctity (cleaning calls) but that is rubbish

UsingMainlySpoons · 05/07/2011 09:54

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