To ask your views on MRAs?

[HoldYourBunFire]

Ok (I have actually name changed for this!) please before I get my biscuits I would like to start by saying this thread is not intended to start any sort of bun fight. I am actually serious. There have been a few threads recently that have sparked my interest in this movement and the deeper I delve into it it's actually starting to look a lot less like a bunch of women bashing misogynists screaming "I hate feminism". There are actually quite a few genuine men out there trying to protest their rights particularly in regards to the family court system.

As the mother of a 3yo DS I am increasingly worried about what the attitude towards men is becoming? Quite a big generalization I know but you have to admit that there is quite alot of man hating going on out there (and in here). We all have Fathers, Brothers, Sons, Husbands etc..

I guess what I am trying to say is that in the face of Womens rights movments and feminism (which I truly thank God every day for as I know how hard my day to day life would be without them) have we forgotten Mens rights?

I have been called a MRA a couple of times. I actually had to ask what it meant and am still not sure why it should be an insult per se. I wouldn?t regard myself as anything of the sort. About a year ago, I challenged some irate fathers who were claiming that the law (family law) always favoured women. I was attacked by several of them as a ?mother?s rights activist.?
The rights of one group or gender and those of another are not necessarily mutually exclusive; at some level they may be inextricably linked.
I?ve had a look at a couple of ?MRA? sites that have been linked on threads on these forums and, from what I have seen, they are more about embittered men having a rant than any objective pursuit of rights as I understand them. Similarly, when I see some of the posts on these forums about what ?Men as a group? do, I just switch off now.

I can asure people that family law does not always favour the mother. Not in Scotland any way.

Boneyback when we talk about our campaigns being hijacked, we're usually talking about violence against women (stats on this thread) which is a subject about which men have done NOTHING but suddenly, men are interested, they're on marches, they're sooo supportive. Why? It's Slutwalk time! Women in fishnets, women in hotpants, women in stilettos, makeup, leather, not much at all, with the word 'slut' written on their tits with lipstick. Suddenly, you can't get the boys away from the 'feminists' and the campaign against male violence. That's what we mean. Start your own march. Wear your own fetish gear. Write on your own arse. Then we might support you.

Oh, forgot to mention- take exclusive responsibility for two children, explain to the 5yr old why they never see Mummy, why they never get birthday cards but their 8yr old sister does, explain why Mummy didn't turn up this Saturday either, why they can't have whatever because you have no money because Mummy forgot to send it again.Then explain why the govt won't get it either, but will charge £100 + 7% just for trying..Do that for 10 years, then let me know about how your rights are. (No, I'm not a single mother. I just take an interest in people who are)

The whole issue of MRAs makes me very uncomfortable. In general, whenever I see evidence of them as a group (e.g. F4J and even FnF) it seems to me that they are all about father's rights over mother's. There seems to be precious little mention of the child in it all.

Given the range of human behaviour, there are bound to be genuine men out there who are denied access to their children for no valid reason whatsoever. I think it's foolish to deny that. The genuine fathers I have come across who really are fighting for the right to be in their child's life don't have anything to do with MRA organisations - maybe because they are too busy trying to deal with the issue to merely bitch about their XPs.

I do not deny the existence of men who feel the family courts let them down (family courts tend to let a lot of people down IMO - mothers and fathers). Nor do I wish to see men prevented from lobbying for improved rights. We live in a democratic country after all. However, as a feminist, and having seen the statistics on non-payment of maintenance and domestic violence, I see issues of contact and maintenance primarily as just two areas of the many in which women still have a raw deal, and I think this far more the case than the number of men who fall foul of the system.

I wouldn't dream of denying any man the right to fight for his rights in this area, and if any male friend of my own acquaintance did this I would help him, not dismiss him. However, as a feminist I am primarily concerned with addressing issues that affect women. There are far too many of these for me to be co-opted into helping a gender group that already has far more advantages than my own.

Does that make sense as an explanation?

Does to me, Sunshine

It makes absolute sense Sunshine.

You are always so reasonable.

Fortunately, my husband is an MRA. I get a front seat view of everything going on, and support him 100%. Everyone I have met that he works with describes themselves as egalitarian, and want to be able to tackle all kinds of issues affecting both sexes.

What a great post sunshine.

I'm not sure of all their 'issues' and of course would have no time for misogyny, but for one thing I thought the Fathers4Justice got a real hard time from the media - non-violent, imaginative protesting from people who I assumed were genuinely desperate and sincere... that's textbook on how to get your point across, whatever it is, yet I got so sick of reading op-ed pieces from women (that I otherwise quite like too) entirely dismissing the whole cause and pouring scorn on the men involved. I just thought of how I'd feel if the courts or a vengeful ex stopped me from seeing my children. I'd go crazy and possibly not stop at dressing up as Batman.

HerBeX I was typing a long winded defensive response but stopped half way through because I realised there is no reason to fling mud at each other over this thread. I do understand what people like yourself face bad attitudes every day. I think what shocked me the most was the aggressiveness in your posts I just cannot see how that attitude will get anyone to listen to your veiws properly and take in all of what you are saying without feeling attacked.

I understand you thought I had posted this in the feminism sections and you seemed to think I was suggesting that all feminists are "man haters" I admit that was a poor choice of words and apologise. I never meant it that way. I posted in AIBU because I was hoping to get views from everyone, Men included. (BTW my name is from one of my favourite books. It is a name a wolf gives to a woman who sings. Howling bitch as in singing female from a wolves POV. Not a loud mouthed woman :o)

Wonderful post sunshineandbooks

Well, I have a 6 year old DS and I fail to see all the man-hating you refer to in your original post howling.

What rights do you think men don't have? Genuine question.

I also think your responses to HerBex are rather disingenuous.

Did it not occur to you that this is a contentious issue about which people have very strong, not to say passionate opinions?

I've also noticed the tendency to accuse posters of being aggressive when they are merely being assertive or just stating their opinion without apology.

I think we may just disagree what what we find aggressive then. I did and I don't really deal well with conflict and find it hard to respond to it as articulately as I would like too. That is perhaps why I came across as disingenuous.

I never once said I think men do not have rights. I am very aware they do. I was just interested in other peoples views on them and I was hoping to see if there were any men here on MN who are apart of these groups to perhaps get a reasonable explanation about what the stand for because the websites I have been on don't seem to have one set thing they believe in.

In response to the "man hating" well I honestly think you don't need to look far as MN is full of double standards when it comes to men. If we reversed a lot of threads to a man saying/doing certain things about/to women they would be accused of being an ass hole at the very least and abusive at the very worst.

I find the idea that this thread has been raised in response to MRA activists coming on MN quite strange. The only MRA activist that has come on (as far as I'm aware, it JamesHuff. He mentioned court cases and this OP was about court cases, but James Huff is an American living in America, as far as I understand it. I'm not sure what kind of conversation we can have about the law when most people here are in the UK, and we have an entirely different legal system and way of handling family law.

Surely if he was really interested in discussing the legal issues, he'd talk on a US mothers board, and if anyone on here were really interested in finding out about MRA, we'd go to a UK MRA board?

My feeling is that Mr. James Huff quite possibly his wife are alive and kicking on Mumsnet.
I have to say it makes me feel all fuzzy inside to know that people are getting worked up about the MN Feminists as far away as Texas.

aliceliddell

the threads that I have seen have been DV/EA threads, things that don't just affect women. In many cases "what about the menz" is the default response.

as for "a subject about which men have done NOTHING" this is in your opinion.

"Start your own march. Wear your own fetish gear. Write on your own arse. Then we might support you"

F4J, FNF etc. clearly you don't support those that have started their own campaigns.

Erm. I'm from Belfast

HB, yes, I assumed you were from the UK. So how does a US man posting about his concerns about his court system have something to do with our court system. Surely the two are completely different? Or is there another MRA poster that has made you wonder about this issue?

Males generally seem to confuse being put (in some situations) on a equal footing with females as being given a disadvantage. The losing of a unfair advantage is not the same as being discriminated against.

Here you go OP:

I think MRA's are generally women hating tossers. I think MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way, yes really) are even worse.

If you want a good insight into why MRA's are so vile. David Futrelle's blog gives very good critiques:

manboobz.com/

Oops sorry Howling. I wasn't referring to you at all. I was thinking about James Huff - who is from Texas. I just don't think he will have given up his little campaign yet. I'm sorry of I implied you were he. I was musing about thing I have read on other threads in the last couple of days and simply replying to Milly's comment about him.

Howling, you're talking about 'forgetting mens' rights' but the only thing your OP, or subsequent posts, mentions is 'a lot of man hating' and double standards and vitriolic tone towards men.

(As an aside, I also note that you feel that you deserve kindness from other posts because you are a woman which would rather imply that you don't feel men deserve kindness?)

Could you possibly articulate what rights you feel men don't have? Or are you limiting your concern to 'the right to not be criticised on internet forums'?