to think that this is a pretty shocking school dinner?

[anchovies]

Today my boys had Caribbean style chicken with spaghetti hoops and garden peas. Pink sponge and custard. Strawberry milkshake.

£1.90 a day.

Thought there must have been some sort of mistake but have just checked the published menus and that is what they had planned for today. Only other main meal was the vegetarian option which they are not allowed (again with peas and spaghetti hoops.) Could have chosen fruit for dessert.

Mentioned it earlier to my neighbour who also has children who have school dinners and she thought it was fine as "the carbohydrate is in the spaghetti hoops".

Wrote (yet another) email to our local council but am now thinking I may be wrong?

You missed the grains and oils needed to make a vegan sponge cake.

Important to remember that unless they are an actual dietician a doctyor will know less than the average person in the street about nutrition, they get almost no training in that area.

No food is unhealthy, it may be less nutritious than alternatives, but cake is not unhealthy, if part of a balanced diet. An unhealthy diet is an unbalanced one.

The reason you're getting so much hostility is your aggressive and smug tone on this thread with people who clearly know as much, if not more about the subject than you do.

TM, im more aware of how little doctors know about nutrition now than I was at the age of 18. Although I've heard some pretty dodgy advice being given by dieticians as well - 'fm is the same as bm now anyway' Theres another nice debate for you. Or perhaps if the dieticiansaid it it must be true.

I think this whole new trend for not calling any food 'unhealthy' is a bit ridiculous tbh. How can you even define an unbalanced diet if you can't determine which foods you should eat more than others/less than others because you deem them all healthy ? Even the WHO refers to them as 'unhealthy' food. I guess they must be wrong too then.

Aggressive? Really? :) I think the worst I have called someone is silly. Would you like to read back through the things I've been called simply for expressing a different opinion about what is a healthy diet for children and how much sat fat is too much? I explained already that I get bored trying to be civil when I'm being accused of being obsessive/cruel or sucking the joy out of food and my children's lives.

Feel free to think I'm smug if you want. It's a very UK (and particularly MN) thing to do. :)

'Again with the exercise...sigh...you'll never understand that it isn't all about getting fat bruffin'

I have to disagree, while it isn't all about getting fat, lifestyle factors play an enormous role in the amount we can eat and type of food. One of the key factors in the increase in obesity is sedentary lifestyle plus those saturated fats are a useful source of energy if you're doing a very physically demanding job. You could get them from other sources but diary products are a good source if you need a high calorific diet. Hence, babies and young children should drink full fat milk.
I would have more concerns on sugar levels and the increase in type II diabetes from eating too much refined sugar.

I am not disagreeing that lifestyle factors play a part in being healthy (not sure how you got that from that quote) but just because you exercise does not mean you can eat as much sat fat as you want. You may not get fat because you're burning off the extra calories but what about your heart and iirc it has been identified as increasing the risk of different types of cancer.

We're also agreeing on the idea of sat fat coming from alternative sources such as dairy rather than things like cake. I've pointed out a few times that most people already have a lot of dairy in their diets as well as meat so they are getting lots of sat fat as it is and adding cake on top of it regularly is unnecessary and unhealthy. (emphasising the regularly thing again here because I've been accused several times of banning foods even though I have mentioned that I do eat them occasionally) I disagree that young children SHOULD drink full fat milk - some don't drink cow's milk at all and have plenty of energy.

Also, you haven't answered my earlier question about whether you think denying a child cake and chocolate at the age of 2 is going to have a lifelong impact on their view of food.

Do you give your young children semi skimmed? If so I am seriously judging you.
Yes, some children don't like milk and are fine but I imagine their parents spend a lot of time getting cheese, yoghurt etc into them.

No, I said earlier they don't drink cow's milk at all. Are you judging me because it's 'different' or because you think a child needs to drink another animal's milk even though they can get calcium and fats from other food?

I think that children need calcium and fats and feel that milk is a great way to give it to them. Agree it can be done through other foods but that can be more difficult.
I don't judge no cow's milk but I judge semi skimmed cow's milk because I think it shows a lack of understanding of the dietary needs of children that is bordering on the insane.

You may disagree that young children SHOULD drink full fat milk but the guidelines suggest that you shouldn't move to semi skimmed or skimmed milk until after 2 or so I remember from the advice given out from HV and the like.
I think the reasoning is that they need the energy and a diet rich in fat is required for healthy brain development at that age (making of the myelin sheath around the neurones etc).

As for you question, below the age of 2 I wouldn't think it would make any difference whatsoever but for many older children it may well do. The development of eating behaviour is a complex issue with factors such as innate tastes, cultural influences, parental/family attitudes, exposure to foods at a young age as well as the effects of classical and operant conditioning. Additionally it is thought we are hard wired in terms of evolution to like sweet and fat rich foods as they helped us survive historically.
Denying older children may have an effect but its just one factor amongst many.

Why are you so bothered by this issue. I notice you were on here very late and back on very early. I know why I keep looking (doing work avoidance as marking exam papers online and stuck on the computer).
Better get back to work!

Well I know that children need calcium and fats but I also know that dairy isn't the only way to give them. I grew up without drinking milk/eating cheese/yoghurt because of a dairy intolerance when I was younger. I don't give them skimmed milk either so I'm not sure if that makes me insane in your eyes or not :) but I don't think your argument makes sense anyway - what difference would it milk if a child was drinking semi-skimmed/skimmed milk if you accept that they can get fats from other sources? Just because dairy is an easy way to get calcium and fat does not mean it is the best/only way.

Type 2 diabetes is NOT caused by eating excess sugar.

sillybillies, I think you're missing my point. I'm arguing against use of the word 'should' because children don't NEED to eat/drink dairy at all. Im not saying they don't need calcium and fat just that they can get them from other sources.

I don't disagree that banning foods for older children would have a more negative impact than for younger. I've already mentioned that my older son (5) gets chocolate/cake occasionally and I'm sure that will naturally increase as he gets older whereas my youngest (2) has only tried some recently and will certainly not be getting it regularly just on the off chance he might binge on it as a teenager! :)

Re late and early posting. Watched a DVD last night but unfortunately DS2 doesn't understand Saturday lie-ins! Really looking forward to going to bed with him at naptime! :)

MrsKravitz From the NHS choices website:

Type 2 diabetes is often associated with obesity.

Lifestyle choices are an important factor in influencing your weight. Eating more calories than you need may be down to unhealthy food choices. For example, unhealthy food choices could be:

* eating processed or fast food that is high in fat,
* not eating fruit, vegetables and unrefined carbohydrates, such as wholemeal bread and brown rice,
* drinking too much alcohol - alcohol contains a lot of calories, and heavy drinkers are often overweight, and
* eating out a lot - as you may have a starter or dessert in a restaurant, and the food can be higher in fat and sugar,
* eating larger portions than you need - you may be encouraged to eat too much if your friends or relatives are also eating large portions, and
* comfort eating - if you feel depressed or have low self-esteem you may comfort eat to make yourself feel better.

Unhealthy eating habits tend to run in families, as you learn bad eating habits from your parents. Childhood obesity can be a strong indicator of weight-related health problems in later life, showing that learned unhealthy lifestyle choices continue into adulthood.

So the NHS use the term 'unhealthy food' too....

Grumpygils there is far more to type 2 Diabetes than that. There is a lot of research about the lack of vitamin D that causing diabetes. The fact that a disproportionate amount of people with darker skins living in north america and northern europe have diabetes. This is because their bodies are not exposed to enough sunlight especially in winter to produce enough vitamin D.
My dad from Cyprus was a classic example

I'm guessing this thread has moved on a bit in 13 pages but I haven't time to read through it all.

Just wanted to say that my DS always chooses plain pasta over potatoes or rice with his school meal.
He regularly has something like roast pork, pasta, peas & gravy which I think is odd but that's what he chooses. Maybe your DS chose spaghetti hoops rather than rice.

I do understand the causes of diabetes. Quite well actually. Eating too much sugar is NOT a direct cause of diabetes . IF (and i say if) it has a role in obesity, it may have a secondary role but certainly not a primary role.

Yes bruffin, sardinia, cyprus and malta have very high rates.

"So the NHS use the term 'unhealthy food' too...."
Thats because official websites like the NHS have to cater to the lowest common denominator ie people who are not very bright!

Actually they said unhealthy food choices.......there is a difference

Mrskravitz, I think griffin was saying it was because her Dad had dark skin because he was from cyprus but was living in the UK where it isn't as sunny. I didn't think vitamin D deficiency in sunny countries was as much of a problem compared to the UK although perhaps having to use sunscreen so much plays a part....although surely people with dark skin dong need to wear as much suncream....

MrsKravitz - you are quite right. My statement was a quick throwaway statement (very poor and have smacked my hand for being bad scientist)

Anyway, I am concerned about the rise of type 2 diabetes and unrefined carbohydrates in the diet is one of many factors involved in the onset. How ironic that I make an error in a similar vein to that of the main thrust of my post. Better get back to work and stop allowing myself to get distracted. Again aware my statement is widely simplistic in terms of diabetes and obviously genetics, obesity, blood lipids/cholesterol, sedentary lifestyle etc are all involved.

and vitamin D! haven't heard of that- interesting (genuinely, not sarcastically)

Mmm there is loads on vitamin d and diabetes atm..have a look :)

Bruffin, why do you have an issue with 'unhealthy' to indicate a difference between certain foods and 'healthy' food? Would you prefer the term 'junk food'? How exactly do you distinguish between foods without accepting that some are better for you(healthy) than others (unhealthy)? That some are good for you/your body/your health while others are not? Or do you not accept that there is a difference and everything can be eaten in moderation with no guidelines as to what a moderate amount for certain foods actually is? (because if you don't distinguish between them then how can you say what it is ok to eat more of?)

I suggested thinking of it in terms of nurtrient density. 'Junk food' is less nutritious. One McDs is not 'unhealthy', it will not make you less healthy. It is less nutritious though, so a diet filled with less nutritious food will be unhealthy as there will insufficient nutrition.

And any saturated fat in cake is generally from dairy. Flour, sugar, butter, egg.

Children below the age of 2/3 need milk, this should preferably be human of course, but cow is better than nothing if the child is intolerant.