To think that if you get stabbed by the owner of the house you're trying to rob...

[BupcakesandCunting]

That it's an occupational hazard of being a burglar?

Obviously I am NOT glad that someone has died here but if you break into a property, you cannot guarantee that you will come out of it very well off. If someone broke into my house, I don't know how I would react but if I felt that my family were under threat and I was panicking, I imagine it would be very easy to go OTT and the other person come off worse.

I know that the law says that you're supposed to use "reasonable force" but heat of the moment/panicking etc etc...

What does everyone else think?

Haven't read the whole thread, it's too long ... but most people seem to be saying death is a suitable penalty for burglary!?!

And, no, the 'occupational hazard' thing doesn't work. If it did, then getting run over would be an occupational hazard of crossing the street to collect your child.

Everybody has a responsibility not to kill or maim another human being.

garlicnutter 'Everybody has a responsibility not to kill or maim another human being.'

Fuck that, don't break into my house and we do not have a problem.

When someone breaks into your house garlicnutter you can calmly explain to them that you would rather they would leave, they break into mine and DH and I are going to do our very best to make sure you don't get the opportunity to leave alive.

Don't like it? Don't break into my house. No problems.

Garlicnutter unfortunately you don't know if they're just there to burgle you or if they're there to rape and murder your children.

I would never shoot anyone running away. I'd never shoot anyone if I thought the situation could be resolved calmly. But if I think you may harm my family, I'm sorry, you're going down.

Again, this is a sad case and I wish I didn't know about it, so don't click on it if you don't want to, but here . A man's entire family are raped and dead over what was started out as a "simple" burglary. I wish he'd had a gun, or a knife, or anything other than what he has now.

I have a feeling I would freeze if someone broke into my house, so I wouldn't be doing anyone much harm. If in the unlikely event I managed to find some courage and I had something to hand (coat hanger, chair, lamp etc) to throw at someone or hit them very hard, then I would say that was reasonable force and should not be arrested for it, even if the chair/lamp etc hurt the burgler.

However, for me to have a knife, I would most likely have to go downstairs or to the kitchen and open the drawer to find the knife in amongst a load of other paraphanalia. This would be premeditated, as why would I need a knife other than to stab someone?

The law states that you are not allowed to carry knives on the street etc for the purpose of protection. Deliberately finding and getting a knife in your home for protection would be the same thing.

Some of the cases have shown that the homeowners have run down the street after the burglers have left the property and then given them a good kicking or worse. This is not reasonable protection of yourself/family/property. It is retaliation.

As another post which seems to totally contradict my last one.

There was a man about 20 years ago living in a large tudor house in a village in Kent near Canterbury (I think it was Petham). Gunned masked men broke into his house and tied up his heavily pregnant wife put a gun to her head and told him to get all the valuables in his house/safe.

He had a gun (country living so had large shot gun) and shot one of the men dead. The houseowner then served time in prison for murder/manslaughter (I can't remember which).

This I feel is wrong. I do think that in this instance, where the burglers were using leathal weapons and threatening to kill, then they have to expect leathal weapons to be used on them.

He...served...time...in...jail?! Please tell me you're joking.

Who knows where in the house you'd be caught? Someone could corner me in the kitchen. I've got plenty of knives there. Someone could knock me out, tie me up, and be upstairs with my child. If I wake up and get free, do I run to the neighbors or do I grab a weapon and go upstairs and fight?

Mn seems to be very full nowadays of competitive child-loving. I've never read so much "I would chop off my arms to be with my child", "I would kill a hundred men", "death is too good for them" etc etc. Real string 'em up stuff. Interesting that this particularly case seems to have tipped the educated majority from "wheels of justice" to DM spittle-flecking rage.

garlicnutter have you ever been burgled?

My sisters house was 2 years ago, the thieves took her holiday spending money [700euros] 4 passports, left everything else, there was game stations in the living room, laptop etc. A football had been kicked through her kitchen window earlier that evening, while her DH has secured it the best he could, with little material he had[not shops open]until the next morning, where it would have been fixed

This was my sister first family holiday abroad, she is not well off, her DH works minimum wage and works night.

My sister was in that house, with her 4 children, aged7,6 4 and 1.

The poor children were devastated, the holiday was 2 weeks after the burglary, so sister decided to cancel it, there was no way she could afford to pay £400 for quick process to get new passports. And replace the spending money.
Thankfully we all rallied around, we all asked for extra hours at work so we could give her money

My sister was mortified the morning she realized she had been robbed.
Her biggest fear was the second oldest child would normally come down for a glass of milk in the night. Thankfully she did not that night
Had she have done, and my DN screamed/got hurt, I would have stabbed the bastard myself

My sister moved out of the home for 2 months, her DH and her split the family, he stayed one place, she and DCs stayed at mine[really was a squish, 10 people in a 4 bedroom house] she eventually moved back.

I will not forget the horror, pain, sadness I saw in my sisters eyes the morning after realizing someone/s had been in her house while her and her DCs were in bed sleeping, the horror of wondering what would have happened had her DD woke in the night for her glass of milk

I think there are one or two fantasists around as well......people who have to have oneupmanship, who have seen everything, done everything and are the authority on everything!

As I understand it, reasonable force is enough force to disable that person under the circumstances in which you are in.
After all - you don't know what that persons motives are

So...if someone breaks into your home, you feel threatened...you wack him over the head (he/she may die) - it's reasonable force

If however you wack that person over the head (or stab him, or shoot him with a licenced gun), he/she is sufficiently disabled....and you then finish him/her off ...then that's not deemed as reasonable force.

Sausagesandmarmelade - if your comment is aimed at me - Im far from 'oneupmanship' who has seen everything, done everything and .....

That is certainly not the case
www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/county/4288856.Callous_thieves_ruin_family___s_first_holiday_abroad/
Now call me a fantasist?

And yes if my dear niece had come down stairs for her glass of milk, and interpreted the intruders, and come to any harm if my sister would not of I would have stabbed the bastards

Oh for goodness sakes welshbyrd!

No I did not actually have you in mind...BUT

If I make an observation about some of the posts I see...you know as well as I do that to call out individual names is just going to incite a massive slanging match.

So I'm not going to disclose who I actually had in mind....or (apart from you) who I didn't!

I think the reason Hussein went down was that not only did he pursue the burglars while they were running away, for quite some distance, he recruited a whole gang of people to join him. He clearly wasn't operating on the spur of the moment to defend his family. He was after retribution. He had plenty of time to regain control.

I think the law is about right now except for the part about householders being responsible for anyone who is injured on their property even if that person entered illegally. If a burglar trips over and breaks his leg, he can sue you. It's one thing holding people responsible for whacking burglars who are running away, quite another holding them responsible for a burglar who has an accident on your property. The latter is a chance they take when they decide to enter your property without permission.

sausage - I quite clearly typed IF you were referring to me ..... not that you was

LeQueen, Excellent post, I agree completely with you

Edam...it's crazy for the law to hold a householder responsible if someone who enters that house illegally gets injured.

Law's an ass...and needs to be changed.
It shouldn't be protecting burglers.......

Sure, if I own my house I have to protect those who enter it legally...or who approach it legally (postman, milkman whatever), but that's where my obligations should end.

Quite, sausage. Only problem I can see if is someone gets injured and the householder's insurers try to wriggle out of it saying 'oh, but you weren't invited'. But it should be fairly straightforward to distinguish whether someone has a legitimate reason for being where they were when they got injured.

Not a household situation, but my local paper's been reporting on a case where a cyclist was knocked down by a lorry and horribly injured while trying to get past some roadworks that blocked the pavement and half the road. The utility company hadn't bothered to put any barriers in place as they normally do to indicate a safe-ish pedestrian passage onto the road past the ruddy big hole.

Poor man was so injured that he has no recollection of what he was doing so the insurers have been trying to blame him - saying 'well, he must have been cycling on the pavement' or 'well, he should have crossed the road to the other pavement' and a number of other equally contradictory arguments.

Case has finally concluded and the cyclist has won. The judge found the utility company's contractors were at fault for leaving pedestrians to play chicken with lorries on a very busy road, so they are responsible for his injuries, whether he was trying to cycle past on the road or on the slender bit of pavement that was left.

Hmmmm very unscrupulous insurers!

I think that was a fair overall decision.

yeah, thing is it's taken two to three years of legal action to reach a conclusion. While this poor man has been unable to work (he was a copper) and left to live in unsuitable accommodation for a profoundly disabled wheelchair user.

Even some of those in favour of violence in self-defense come out with things like 'as long as you don't fetch a weapon as then it would be premeditated'

Now that implies that it's okay to use force to defend your family, only if you did it on the spur of the moment without thinking Well what is wrong with thinking "there are four of them hurting my family. I'm going to purposely and intentionally fetch a gun from downstairs and shoot the bastards"

Yes, I have been burgled.

I know some of the posters to this thread live in the USA, where I guess this argument is a little different. Our police are not armed with attack weapons. This is because, when police are not armed, there's little reason for burglars to be armed. Burglars in the UK rarely carry weapons - thus, 'reasonable force' can be a hand-to-hand fight or a whack with a cricket bat if you are attacked.

The man in the story should have shot the guy's arm or leg. If he owns a gun, he knows how to aim it at close quarters.

Burglars are not rapists. Rapists are rapists. Reasonable force against a rapist allows quite a lot of force, but not murder.

I'm not in favour of capital punishment but, even if you are, it is unreasonable to kill a person for attempted burglary. Burglary isn't a capital crime.

Pingu - 'However, for me to have a knife, I would most likely have to go downstairs or to the kitchen and open the drawer to find the knife in amongst a load of other paraphanalia. This would be premeditated, as why would I need a knife other than to stab someone?

The law states that you are not allowed to carry knives on the street etc for the purpose of protection. Deliberately finding and getting a knife in your home for protection would be the same thing.'

Can't agree with this - after we were burgled while in our beds I did sleep with my biggest kitchen knife under my bed for when I was home alone with my child. You might class that as premeditated but i don't care. If I feel threatened enough and get the chance then I don't care and hope to have the presence of mind to use it - i might freeze but I will never know until faced with such an incident. Hopefully I will never be in that position though and would choose flight over fight if it meant my family and I could get safely away. I really care nothing for the person breaking and entering who will probably have a huge list of convictions anyway.

I would say that most burglars in the UK choose to burgle when residents are away. They watch the houses, learn the occupancy patterns and strike when they think the house is empty.
Why? because it's safer...and they don't have to deal with the residents.

So....anyone burgling when a house is occupied is more likely to be armed in some way (I think)!

garlicnutter 'The man in the story should have shot the guy's arm or leg.'

Snort, never fired a gun have you? Unless you are an expert marksman it is very unlikely you would be able to do this especially in the dark, in a panic. You aim at the largest part of whatever you are trying to shoot. Not the free moving extremities.

Breaking into my home carries a possible death penalty, it really doesn't matter to me what the law is or whether the more passive amongst us think that is wrong, it is just the way it is.

As I said I wouldn't use a knife, I would use the heavy torch I keep to hand for blackouts, or one of the 'decorative' swords on the wall, or a chair or whatever heavy object I could place my hands on to increase the force of my blow. My mother would just shoot the fuckers because she does have guns in the house and close to hand.

Our police are armed here as a matter of course, because it is stupid for only the criminals to have weapons.