To think that if you get stabbed by the owner of the house you're trying to rob...

[BupcakesandCunting]

That it's an occupational hazard of being a burglar?

Obviously I am NOT glad that someone has died here but if you break into a property, you cannot guarantee that you will come out of it very well off. If someone broke into my house, I don't know how I would react but if I felt that my family were under threat and I was panicking, I imagine it would be very easy to go OTT and the other person come off worse.

I know that the law says that you're supposed to use "reasonable force" but heat of the moment/panicking etc etc...

What does everyone else think?

I am not confident that I could 'win' but I am confident I would do my level best to actually kill the person. Not just fight them off or scare them. You break into my house where my babies are sleeping and I want you dead.

If I then got arrested I would do whatever I had to to get off, would lie and say I didn't mean it, lawyer up etc. I am not going to rollover for that either.

That is not true for everyone Sidge or there would be no need for a law at all.

We are animals, animals defend their turf, my house and my kids are mine. When I say 'Over my dead body' I actually mean it.

Hopefully this will never come up, it is pretty unlikely but I think I know myself well enough now to know that my response would be anger along with fear.

No of course it's not true for everyone but what people say and what they actually do in an event are often very different.

Don't assume that you will go all banzai and kick 10 bells out of someone - you may be enraged and do so, but conversely you may be petrified with fear and stand stone still and wet yourself.

I have fought back whilst being attacked, but i would rather walk away if it meant that i wasn't going to held in custody away from my DC's (which alot of people don't think about). Also what if i turn what was a simple burglary into an attack on myself and it is i who is killed, or badly injured, who then protects my DC's. What if the burgler turns on one of my DC's as a hostage because i have got a knife in my hand? I rather have the police on standby and use them.

I don't assume anything, I do however think that once someone has crossed the line by entering my turf I am well within my moral rights (if not legal rights) to kill that person.

Would you really freeze if you found someone at the door to your child's room? I can't imagine any parent regardless of how passive doing that, it wouldn't be a natural or instinctive response.

BornSicky

"so you think that reasonable should include the allowance that if somone breaks into enters your home uninvited, then you are allowed to kill them? under any circumstances?"

I'm not sure if you're confusing me with someone else?

I've never said that.

What I have said is that I would either do nothing or try my hardest to incapcitate the intruder until they were no longer a thread. If that means a bash on the head with a bat, and I no longer feel in immediate danger, fine. If it means smashing them repeatedly on the head until they stop moving, that's fine too.

But what I don't like is the idea that some cool calm courtroom can judge what is "reasonable" 4 months down the line.

Frankly, I don't care what a court thinks is reasonable.

I will do whatever it takes to make me feel like there's no longer an immediate threat so I can call the police. But if I happen to misjudge how much I've bashed the attacker, and I accidently kill him in an attempt to feel safe, and that is later considered disproportionate force later down the line - THAT is what I would be happy to go to jail for.

I'm not talking about the mentality of "he's in my home, I'm going to kill him no matter what", I'm talking about me giving everything that I can to take that intruder down, and I'll be fucked if I care about what some judge or jury considers "reasonable" in that case. I'll do anything to protect myself and my family. Whether I misjudge how much force is needed to clamp down on one attacker vs another is none of my concern. If he dies, he dies. I wouldn't have intended it. but I'm not going to swing a bat with less force than EVERYTHING I HAVE unless I feel the immediate danger is passed.

It's an utterly different thing to what you're saying in the quote above.

It is a natural response to freezre when shocked, that is why the training in the army/police is so intence, that split second will make a big difference. The burgler may try to flee, the response should then be to go to your DC's not chase, what if they are not alone? What if you are chasing and mistake a policeman who has been called by a neighbour and stab him instead, not all fast response officers are in full uniform.

Ofcourse defend yourself but to attack without cause is asking for trouble.

PiousPrat Surely while the intruder is unconcious from the first blow with the Le Creuset you can tie him up so the second blow is unnecessary?

Seriously, though, I think if I woke up and heard an intruder in the house my first instinct would be to put on a light and make lots of noise in the hope that that would scare them away. (Though thinking about it we have a burglar alarm so the noise would be happening anyway)

If I had to defend myself or my family I really, really don't think I could bring myself to use a knife. I just couldn't do it. Hitting them with something hard would be an option though. We have two ice axes upstairs and DH always says that he would charge downstairs with one of those if necessary.

Years ago burglars broke in to our house while we were away, but fortunately brave neighbours investigated and the disturbed burglars ran off with nothing. However, they caused quite a bit of damage and mess so I was extremely satisfied, when cleaning up, to discover smears of blood on the electric socket and video recorder and TV they tried to remove. They had broken a window to get in so must have cut themselves Good!

I don't agree Birds and i think you are over thinking and over rationalising this. Of, course I don't know how I would react if I had faced the guy who burgled us. It all depends on split second decisions often where you don't have time to think. I might do nothing if that seemed safer or I might kill him if i felt in danger and got the chance. And I doubt anyone thinks that they can just easily win against an intruder but if they feel threatened they might just try. Of course if I knew the guy was harmless and will go quietly on his way with my bag/money then i will happily let him go but I don't know what his intentions are in that split second.

I have always lived in what some would consider quite rough areas and all of the senarios that i have mentioned have happened. You have got to think about the consequences of your actions if you have DC's. As i said in my ealier posts most of peoples fears are created by the media, there are very few burglers that would rape or kill. Those that break into houses to assualt children are not burglers but where are the cases that this has happened? There are some cases of child snatches and of course if someone had hold of your DC, you would react, but those entering houses are doing so to remove goods and given the chance, go on their way.

Posters are underthinking the situation and will support ineffective laws on that basis, that affect everyone, when what we need is better policing and a better response from the CPS.

the best case scenario is that no-one gets hurt at all even if it means the burglar just walks away. I think that what people want is that is they do react and hurt someone in the heat and fear of the moment - that they will not be judged and punished for it

how can you tell when Kormachameleon is fantasising?

Wasn't there a case where a lad (?12-13yo?) saw his mum being attacked with a knife (in their home). The boy ran to get a kitchen knife and stabbed the attacker. Who died from the wound.

Police investigated (their duty) but boy wasn't charged -- police judged that was proportionate force. Actually the law does make sense, quite a lot of the time.

ragged, if that was the same case, his mum also died too.

So the poor lad stabbing the intruder at the same time his mum has been fatally wounded (or even dead at that stage herself anyway) is of course proportional. Utter madness for any court to consider it anything but.

I think the unclear thing is here: if the boy's mum wasn't fatally wounded, but the attacker was uninvited, putting up a struggle, and the boy stabbed him to subdue him (but not repeatedly/when he eventually went down/was unconcious again and again) that is what is more interesting to discuss. I think

What's unclear?

Erm, well this:

"if the boy's mum wasn't fatally wounded, but the attacker was uninvited, putting up a struggle, and the boy stabbed him to subdue him (but not repeatedly/when he eventually went down/was unconcious again and again)"

Is there a chance that in court the attacker could plead that he was trying to get away (say - no proof) and that he had no intention of raping the mum, killing her, etc - and if the boy admits to having stabbed him, you're not telling me that the police would just say "oh dear, clearly he reacted in a split second, it's good that mum's alive, but there's a dear boy, no charges to answer now"?

I might have written that slightly sacastically but I'm actually genuinely interested.

Where an attacker ends up dead, but in the cold light of day it seems they reacted very strongly and no harm came to the householders (possibly because of that strong response), in what percentage of cases do the householders have to:

• explain themselves (I'd hope all of them)
• get arrested (possibly most)
• get charged (possibly some?)
• get convicted (dunno)

... and where is the line drawn in clear terms in those cases about what is reasonable vs. what is not? What line affects the percentage of people getting convicted?

The violence used must be proportionate and whether or not it is proportionate is to be judged from the subjective view point of the defendant. This is a matter for the jury to decide.
If the boy honestly believed that his motherswas in danger then stabbing him would be proportionate.
In any case resulting in a death I'd like to think that all would be arrested and charged if there is a case to answer. Then it is up to the jury to decide whether or not the force used was proportionate and that is to be interpreted from the defendants p.o.v.

If someone broke into my home and I had any doubt at all that DS would be harmed (or myself or DH for that matter, or even the sodding dog) I'd shoot them outright and sleep like a baby afterward.

Didn't realise we had so many action heroes who posted on here.

Nah, I'm no action hero, just American...you know how we are about our guns. :o

I'm kidding. We do have a gun, but we also have a small child so obviously gun and bullets are locked up separately and not even in the house for that matter, so chances of me getting my hands on them and knowing what to do are slim to none. And I would never want to be in the position to cause harm to anyone.

BUT if it came down to them or my family, y'damn right I'd pick my family. I wish with all my heart that this family had had some sort of weapon. (Disclaimer: very, very sad case. Don't click on it if you don't want to.)

Totally agree OP. If someone broke into my house I'd try to stab them as best I could. Who the hell knows if they just want to steal some stuff and leave or stick around and murder you?

How can you prove the owner didn't perceive that his life was at risk and thereby suggest that the owner was unreasonable?

The Burglar is the one who committed the crime and put himself in that position.

I think that if anyone breaks into your house, they take the chance you will defend yourself, kids and property. A friend of mine had her shed broken into and bikes stolen. A neighbour spotted the thieves cycling away on her and mans bikes, phoned the cops then phoned her. Her and her man rushed home(made it before the police) and went out looking for the thieves. They found them,still with the bikes outside a local shop and took them back, with a word of warning that if they came back near the house they would get what for. The police then came back and threatened them with getting charged with threatening behaviour. Go figure???

"Nah, I'm no action hero, just American...you know how we are about our guns."

Ah I was only kidding. I'd just try to secure everyone in a room, push a chest against the door and phone the police. However if it came down to it I'd also have no problem with seeing a burglar die at the hands of a homeowner defending themself or property.
I really wish I could own a gun but they won't let us in Ireland.