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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that if you get stabbed by the owner of the house you're trying to rob...

270 replies

BupcakesandCunting · 23/06/2011 19:12

That it's an occupational hazard of being a burglar?

Obviously I am NOT glad that someone has died here but if you break into a property, you cannot guarantee that you will come out of it very well off. If someone broke into my house, I don't know how I would react but if I felt that my family were under threat and I was panicking, I imagine it would be very easy to go OTT and the other person come off worse.

I know that the law says that you're supposed to use "reasonable force" but heat of the moment/panicking etc etc...

What does everyone else think?

OP posts:
DiscoDaisy · 23/06/2011 21:10

A barrister on Sky News earlier pointed out that the term reasonable force was a very broad term.
What one jury would deem as reasonable force would not neccessarily be the same as another jury.

spookshowangel · 23/06/2011 21:11

i keep a collection of ornamental knives, some in my bedroom. dont break in to my house it would not be in your interests.

Bogeyface · 23/06/2011 21:13

My sister once said that given that she keeps a 6 foot ten inch bloke in her bed with her, anything she asked him to do could be construed as unreasonable force!

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 21:14

Virgo. Tony Martin has A LOT of support in certain quarters for shooting that kid as he ran away. But the sound of it a lot of people on this thread would think it justified.
He clearly wasn't in fear or protecting himself and was dishing out his own brand of justice - how can that be right? Why should he be exempt from the law that it is illegal to murder because he had been burgled?

Omigawd · 23/06/2011 21:15

"A baseball bat, for instance, might be a bit harder to explain."

My DCs played baseball and cricket as some of their sports fads, and maybe I should take up fencing :o

spookshowangel · 23/06/2011 21:19

i dont think murder is justifiable under any circumstances but if someone breaks in to your house and terrifies you. it is not unreasonable for you to react in fear and lash out in order to protect yourself or your loved ones. shooting some one in the back is a different ball game.

BornSicky · 23/06/2011 21:22

i completely agree with CogitoErgoSometimes.

but there's another angle, brought up by the Hussein case, where his family were tortured and when the attackers left, Mr Hussein grabbed a cricket bat and beat the crap out of them as they left.

in that instance, it's totally possible to have a delayed reaction/response that is not planned or premeditated, but is violence after the fact.

i think this is potentially a more grey area.

I can see a circumstance arising where if I had been robbed and was immobile or petrified, I might well become so incensed immeditately following the incident (when i had that release of surviving it or being free) that I'd go after someone with whatever I had to hand at the time. adrenalin is a funny thing.

all the same, I DO prefer our system to the US one. I don't like to think that as a society we approve or condone of people enacting violence against one another without recourse to justice. I believe in our legal system to weigh and balance the circumstances and to judge reasonableness.

In the US, there is nothing to stop people (as is anecdotally referenced here) from behaving illegally and covering it up with the law by dragging people inside boundary lines etc.

What's to stop people claiming burglary and defence as a way of getting off of a murder charge where the circumstances might be altogether different... domestic violence for example?

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 21:28

The guy got off in the Hussein case in the end didn't he? I think it was, quite rightly, argued that he suffered severe psycholgical trauma which made him react the way he did. It is looked at on a case by case basis and I think, invariably, they get it right.

bubblecoral · 23/06/2011 21:29

If it was domestic violence then there would be evidence that the murderer and the victim knew eachother. There wouldn't be that evidence if it was a complete stranger breaking into a house.

nocake · 23/06/2011 21:31

The cases that are normally dragged up by the tabloids when this sort of thing happens are not simply a homeowner grabbing something to defend himself. There is always something else going on. In Tony Martin's case he lay in wait for the burglars with a gun. There was another case in High Wycombe a couple of years ago when the man chased the burglar after he'd left the house and beat him to death. Neither of those is reasonable behaviour.

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 21:32

Does anyone on here think that if someone snatches your bag in the street you should be allowed to pursue and kill them? And if not why not?

Omigawd · 23/06/2011 21:33

The timing of all this with Mr Cameron's recent utterances is rather interesting.

tralalala · 23/06/2011 21:39

I would stab anyone that broke into my house where my babies are sleeping.

ajandjjmum · 23/06/2011 21:40

I don't know about this case other than hearing the news headline, but having been car-jacked on one occasion and having five huge men break into my house whilst I was in with DD (12) and Mum, I honestly don't think anyone KNOWS what they would do unless they've been in that situation.

I would have always said I'd do anything to overpower them etc. etc., as it was I said 'just take what you want and leave us alone. Here's the safe, do you want me to open it?'

DS and I were talking about it today, and saying how if I acted completely out of character, it could happen the other way around, and some normally gentle, peace loving person could just flip - with provocation.

tralalala · 23/06/2011 21:40

and I am true wooly guardian reading leftie

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 21:43

tralala? Are you big and physically fit because if not the liklihood is that it would be you who would end up getting stabbed.

maypole1 · 23/06/2011 21:50

The guff no I wouldn't because if someone grabed my bag in the street I would only assume they want my bag if someone broke into my home

How would i know they didn't want to rape me or my child, kill me or my family or tougher me as in the case of the young man and his girlfirend who stabbed him then rubbed bleach in the wounds

I happy that you would take the change the bugler but for me and my family any one who's not invited will get knock the fuck out

bethelbeth · 23/06/2011 21:51

I don't think I'd have the time to be reasonable if someone broke into my house. I wouldn't be asking them politely to leave.

I'd be coming at them with a baseball bat screeching most likely.

I totally agree with David Cameron trying to give members of a household more security in their own home.

DoubleNegativePanda · 23/06/2011 21:53

I am likely to get ONE chance to defend myself and the kids before being overpowered. So I can hardly plan to give them a light tap on the head and hope they run away. Either I go for it and aim to totally incapacitate them, or I do nothing.

Which is why someone breaking into my house would be shot. I am in the US, and my DH is in law enforcement.

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 22:01

Right maypole so you agree that pursuing and killing someone who is running away and no threat to you or otherwise immobilised is not on then? Then you agree with me and agree with the law. I have not once said that people shouldn't be able to protect themselves. I have only said that the chance of a burglar attacking you is statistically slim whereas the chance of you getting injured by your own gun/knife while trying to attack them is pretty high. The same reason I wouldn't grapple with anyone who mugged me. They might want to beat me up as well but in all likliness if I just gave them my stuff they would scarper.

VirgoGrr · 23/06/2011 22:03

thegruffalosma - I hope you didn't misunderstand me? I was saying that Tony Martin was clearly wrong to have shot someone while they were running away from him. I know that the Dailymailers took his case on as a 'Rah, Rah cant even defend yourself in your home etc when that clearly wasnt the case.

However, I do think that you should be able to protect yourself from an intruder in your property if you feel threatened. Thats why I mentioned the 'household objects' under my bed. Grin

LolaRennt · 23/06/2011 22:05

If someone breaks in to my home, with me and my daughter inside. I guarentee you they won't be walking out.

thegruffalosma · 23/06/2011 22:16

Not at all Virgo - wasn't aimed at you. Just seems that some people think you should have the right to kill cos you're pissed off rather than fearing for your safety.

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 23/06/2011 22:24

"I was saying that Tony Martin was clearly wrong to have shot someone while they were running away from him"

Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent I could also see a case where if someone broke into my house with the intent to harm my children then a red mist might descend apon me enough to shoot someone if they decided to run away.

Spuddybean · 23/06/2011 23:23

unless you are in immediate physical danger i think you should not kill someone. We do not have the death penalty in this country and even if we did i hope doubt it would ever be applied to burglary.
Therefore you shouldn't be killed as a punishment for trying to take someones property.