to think that you can either have a clean, tidy and uncluttered house OR happy children but not both?

[GreenTeapot]

Or can you manage both? How do you do it?

To the person who criticised my saying 'mop the floor you dirty cow' it was an ironic rejoinder to a comment upthread. Yes I have heard of the women's movement dear

I think it is easier to have a clean house if you work FT. You are in the house less to mess it up. I have never been a SAHM but can imagine that it would be more difficult to keep a house clean if you are at home with children a lot of the day.

Agree with everyone who said that you need to be ruthless with your stuff - I throw loads of stuff away, so it doesn't take up all the storage space. I also am very minimal, the only decoration my house has are bookshelves full of books. No ornaments, candles, crap like that.

A man that pulls his weight is essential. And if you make sure you're all out most of the time that helps too, either by working or taking the kids to mess somewhere else up!
A cleaner for 2 hours a week sorts my house out, I do zero cleaning (other than wiping surfaces) DH does all the laundry, and the kids do their own rooms.

Easy peasy.

But it would be different in a 2 bed terrace with small rooms greenspace ... I have always found that storing things on walls is a good move, rather than taking up floor space. Can you put things like the slow cooker in the oven until it needs to come out?

Agree mary - you need to share the chores, DP and DD do as many household tasks as I do.

Loft for the stuff that hardly gets used like camping gear?

We have good storage but it just hasn't clicked with the kids that they have to put stuff away after it's been used and that actually, I don't really want 32 pebbles, a feather and a piece of 'very special' bluetak leaving on the sideboard for 4 days!!!!!

GreenTeapot, I chucked so much kitchen stuff away. We had about 6 pint glasses, 6 half-pint tankards, several novelty/birthday glasses, shot glasses, more than a dozen mugs, yorkshire pudding tins I'd inherited from my Mum that looked a health hazard, all the baby cups and cutlery DS didn't use anymore, a flask that had never been used, mutliple casserole dishes etc.
It's been de-cluttered right down.
I had two tidy baskets of herbs and spices. Only one basket left after I'd chuck all the out of date stuff out.

I now have the bare minimum of crockery, glassware, pans, casseroles, baking trays etc.
Not much is on the surfaces now at all.

The house we've just moved from had a very small galley kitchen and in addition to chucking nearly everything out I had some shelves put up on one wall for my spice basket, tin of baking stuff, plastic mixing bowls etc. and rails with hooks on on another wall for all my pans and frying pans, colander, sieve. Ikea of course.

I've got a basket in the hall for shoes and boots, all get chucked in. Ones we use rarely are in the wardrobe.

Big jigsaws I might put under a bed. Or give them to a charity shop if they've been done.

My laundry baskets and clothes airers don't really get put away, so I can't help you there.

I would put camping gear in the loft. Maybe try and get a pretty container/box for the dog food that it could go in and sit on the floor. Sometimes just making something look nicer can make a big difference even if it is still taking up the same amount of space.

Could you put the emergency stroller in the loft if you don't use it and it really is for emergencies?

And cookery books on a shelf with nice book ends can actually look really attractive.

We also bought some very cheap but nice large hat boxes - I think from one of these really cheap bookstores, and have them on top of bookcases. They look pretty, but are useful for storage. But you would need to keep an eye out, as they don't sell them that often.

Small children thrive on unhindered spontaneity. If a child wants to turn a cardboard box into a rocketship / car/horse but thinks 'first i must put the jigsaw back in the box' it's going to interrupt their fun rather. I know lots of people with messy houses and confident, creative children. All that Sunday supplement 'peace and serenity' stuff is nonsense anyway. It's heartbreaking to see children who won't get involved in messy activities in case they get their clothes dirty. Somebody once told me that if a child reaches the end of the day with clean clothes, they have been bored or swimming. Another person told me that trying to keep a house tidy with small children is like building a wall and seeing it knocked down every day. It's only untidyiness; open a bottle of wine, kick the toys into the corner and read a book. Mine are teenagers now and they put things away, but- dear Lord- the unbridled, crazy wonderful chaos of the early years. Tidyness is for losers x ;)

Minky, they can't play with stuff is they can't find it!

Glad you posted that minky - I feel much better now as I stare into the conservatory at DS' 3 ft cardboard robot that has to be kept "forever or I'll run away mummy".

But actually, you're right; I'd much rather my kids were creative and could amuse themselves than have a pristine home where the kids didn't know how to play. I know someone with a house like that and the kids cannot entertain themselves for toffee.

I would let my kids do whatever they like in the house. I agree with what Time says. How can they play with stuff if they cant find it. DD2 has a rack in her bedroom from Argos. It has 9 boxes in so all her jigsaws and stuff are sorted and in boxes. She takes herself up to play with them then i tidy them up when she has a nap. Yes it goes round in circles but if it didnt she wouldnt be able to find all her bits and bobs IYSWIM

Minky - and what happens when the toys you've kicked into a corner are broken, the vital bit gets lost etc etc because things don't get put away? DS1 loves that his toys are where he can find them - everything has it's own box and he knows where they are when he wants them. Much less time-consuming than a constant stream of 'Mummy where's my '.

DS can make dens, draw, have playdough, make a pirate ship in the living room out of the sofa cushions - anything he likes. But then it all gets cleared up at the end of the day.

GreenTeapot can you get another outside storage box like this to keep the camping stuff, spare buggy, shoes and boots rarely worn etc in?

That would free up your inside cupboard for dog food, kitchen stuff, larger boxes etc.

Impossible 100% of the time but perfectly acheivable 80%

I cannot stand my home being a mess

I think this thread has proven that for some it's perfectly possible to have a clean/tidy house and happy DC with DC playing all day at home or not; and for others it's not possible. Each to there own, I say.

Incidentally, although my DD's childminder has a house full of kids doing messy play and whatnot all week long, her house is very clean and tidy (I've popped in a few times) - she told me they clean up as they go along and she gets the DC to help her after each activity - it's part of their learning.

I'm more like you LeQueen, but I think some of us are naturally tidy and have been since we were little. Tidyness comes instinctively to DH and I and DD (3) is also very good at tidying up after herself once I ask her to. As I mentioned in the post above, her CM is also very tidy and gets all her mindees to clean up with her after each activity. They are all very happy in her home :-)

We only have lego and puzzles in the living room. These are activities they like to do with input from us. The rest is in their rooms. These are toys that they like to play with either alone or with their friends.
We keep their rooms tidy. If their rooms are not tidy, they are fidgety and cant find anything to play with. We tidy together, and when they have had friends over, the friends help tidy up a bit too. It is nice to learn to tidy from a young age. I think it creates happy tidy adults!

It is a gift I want to bestow upon my children.

I also agree its important to teach your dc's to tidy up after themselves too. Surely this is the right message to be sending to them about responsibilty

Montessori....arguably the most free and creative education....asks for everything to have a place and it's very child lead. I think the idea that tidying up interrupts a child's spontaneity is one of the funniest things I've heard.

Searching for toys or dried up paint brushes ruins spontaneity, not tidying up. And this idea that if your house is tidy your children never make a mess is pretty lazy thinking, the idea is that you tidy up afterwards.

Stop the polarisation. It's not one thing or the other.

If yo have space, and a place for everything, and are organised, tidying takes all of 15 mins.

My dd (12) is downstairs making a magnificent sponge cake with cream, fruit etc for her nan's birthday. She can do it exactly as she pleases and has only one proviso, at the very end, when I reappear, there is to be no evidence (apart from the cake) that anything has taken place. Win-win.

minky there are artists who prefer to work in a very tidy and clean studio, not all creative people like 'bohemian' enviroment.
Personally i feel that clutter blocks my -any- creativity. Give me clean and airy space, white walls etc.

Something that it hasn't been mentioned is about 'good guests'. A tidy person is more welcome to stay with friends/relatives and enjoy free holidays . Our families are abroad and when we stay with them my dcs automatically put their shoes away, their dish in the w/m, make their beds etc. I don't have to tell them, this is what they do at home too. I hope in a couple of years to sent them away for the whole summer . Who wants to offer free holidays to a 'creative' messy guest?

hully: "Stop the polarisation. It's not one thing or the other."

Don't be silly hully. This is mumsnet, we can't do shades of grey. It is black and white and an argument about who is right.

minkly you sound distinctly tiresome.