to think it's a bit cheeky for the wealthy to monopolise places in the top state schools instead of coughing up for private?

[rainbowtoenails]

I've read a lot of the education threads on here and lots of people seem to despair that they can't get into their local state school unless they live within a few feet, where the house prices spike up by several thousands of pounds.
I agree but I'm going to take the arguement one step further by saying that I think its wrong for someone who can easily afford it, to forgo private schools, and take up places at the most oversubscribed state schools, often by using their money to inflate local house prices.
I know that these people have paid their taxes for the state schools but we all pay tax for services we dont use.
If everyone who could afford it went private there would be a lot more spaces in the top state schools for pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds. I firmly beleive that the top state schools should not only serve the rich. This perverse system means that lower income families are paying tax to provide an education they themselves have no access to.

So what is your income limit, what's wealthy? even if you factor those in who earn below 100k you are still looking at a rather large % of the 630k kids who do go to private school having parents earning over 100k. you are not going to free up many spaces. what about the costs of running this, if you set income limits based on number of kids and maybe something for regional housing costs, the amount it would cost to run would probably be the equivalent of increasing capacity in the "good" schools. Anyway must go to bed now as have to get up earlier to earn the money to pay the tax!

You do understand that the major reason the good state schools are good is money don't you? Resources cost money. You take the money away the resources go with it.

Nothing to do with 'nice' 'bright' children and everything to do with having money floating around.

If this were to happen I would be looking for the schooling component of the tax we pay being returned. We don't play tax games but would have no hesitation in doing so if we were not able access the resources we have paid for.

I am not going to pay for schools and hospitals I have no right to use and we can afford the lawyers and accountants to make that happen.

Ishani plenty of the rich have bailed on the UK. DH is doing the exact same job he was doing in London, except for more pay and now the Oz government is collecting the tax instead of the UK one. The London office has downsized massively moving the big boys offshore and firing the support staff. Be careful what you wish for.

I must admit that although I do not agree with the OP it does bug me that DC in a London area which I know well will "buy" a good education for their infant and primary school aged DC via purchasing million pound plus houses and sending their DC to the local state infant and junior school whilst extolling the virtues of mixing with a wide demograph and then opting for private education for secondary level because the local state schools veer between pretty crap to bloody not fit to send a bluebottle to!

These two state schools I speak of, one infant, one junior, had when I lived nearby a catchment of a few hundred yards from the school gate. IMHO, and bear in mind I would send both DDs to independent if I could afford it, one DD is at private school atm (a special school for bullied DC and state funded for a couple of terms so I see it from various angles) the education which DC in that London area get is definitely not inclusive although that's one of the reasons I've heard parents give for their decision. The children are all the same - those of very rich, very largely white English middle/upper middle classes.

I don't begrudge them in the least for if I were in the shoes of those parents I would do the same and I take issue with the OP for suggesting that I should do otherwise but please don't tell me that a child is as well off in a lesser/average state school given the comparison between those two London schools and the rest of them. Money DOES buy the better schools, whether by private education or by ability to buy a house in the right area.

What the answer to the problem is though I have no idea.

Morloth
"plenty of the rich have bailed on the UK"
define "plenty" - as according to the figures obtained by Accountancy Age, only two companies relocated after the tax crackdown and the new non residency rules that may come in this Autumn are so strict that your DH's firm's little games will no longer work
www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/2079755/residency-consultation-published-imminently

The number of the rich who work for multinationals who are willing to shift their tax domicile around the world is trivial compared to the number who work outside the City.

My ideal model of education is one in which everyone goes to the same state school but where the prevailing ethos among the pupils is that it's cool to work hard and learn and join in. That is it.

I would certainly not be spending my entire income on school fees (we are not super-rich, very much the increasingly squeezed middle) if that were available in any state school near us.

the problem is not rich people taking places at the "best" schools. the problem is that there is such a thing as "best" schools - rather than good quality state provision at every state school. and the reason there are good and bad schools has an awful lot to do with choice - and attempting to use a market-style model for the provision of a product where there is no excess of supply. it is this bizarre, half-arsed commoditisation of state education that is at fault.

just supposing all the rich parents did stop sending their kids to these good state schools? do you think there would be an excess of places at "good" schools suddenly open to the less well off? of course not. there would be just be a reduction in the total number of state places - the existence of "good" and "bad" schools would continue, and the less well off, squeezed middle, or whatever, would just keep the really-not-very-well-off-at-all out of the good schools.

your later point - that people who have moved shouldn;t take teh moral high ground over those who go private - is fair enough, but is very different form what you said in teh OP.

my second para doesn't quite make sense. there would be an excess of places - briefly - but they would be quickly filled, using the same unequal process as currently. The basic problem of inequality in access to good state education would remain.

Very well said, duchesse. If that were the ethos in the state schools which my DD2 has attended in this area (not a disadvantaged one either, quite the opposite) YOU the taxpayer wouldn't now be spending via the LA £12K for two terms of education and rehabilitation at an independent school for bullied children because DD was so severely bullied for being a "geek" who wanted to learn.

Let's bear in mind too that there is no state provision for children who are so severely bullied that they cannot attend mainstream school. That means two things - that unless you are very bloody determined and as well-red/up on the law/articulate as possible your bullied child stands no bloody chance of help or rehabilitation and that if you are all those things and your bullied for wanting to learn child is lucky enough to get a specialist school placement you and your fellow residents are paying well over the odds for it because your LA begrudgingly has to contract out to provide the service.

Folk here have spoken of 3 or 4K per term for a private school place. My DDs place in this specialist private school costs £6K per term. I cannot tell you how humbled I am by the change in her, it brings me to tears, it's worth every penny and if I had it I would pay 100 times that to enable her to go there until she was of an age to leave school. That however doesn't change the fact that I am not paying it, YOU are, because the state system fucked up over and over again and led her to be in a position to need the schooling she currently gets.

duchesse I understand and agree with what you're saying so very much and there, if I had the funds, would go I.

Red up? Obviously I'm not! I meant "read-up" of course!

Dogs- I'm so glad your poor DD is recovering. Does she go to a Red Balloon school? I've heard brilliant things about them.

Why shouldn't the 'rich' benefit from the best state schools. They pay more tax than the rest.

Lets flip your argument for a second. How would you feel if the rich said low earners or those on benefits had less of a right to use the best schools as they pay little or no tax to fund them?

Duchesse - I think you're right, the ethos of a school is very important. I think teachers and governors can do a lot to promote a positive ethos, and there is clear evidence of this in the schools that get turned round by radical new heads.

However, I think the demographics also play a major role here. My dd's state primary does have a really positive, aspirational ethos, and I know that we're very lucky in this respect. I'm sure that some of it has to do with the wonderful headteacher and her staff, but it inevitably helps that a very large proportion of her pupils are the children of academics or researchers. These kids come from families which value education very highly, and they will be well supported outside of school. Many of these parents could pay for private education, but I wonder what would happen to our school if all of those who could go private suddenly did. I suspect that the school's ethos and results would suffer!

I am not for a moment suggesting that wealthier parents are the only ones who value education and support their children. It would be impossible to make such generalisations, and I really feel for those parents who care deeply about their kids' education but just can't afford to do anything about it. But I do think the demographics make a big difference and pushing those on higher incomes out of the state system is not going to solve the problem.

Yes i have left the UK for those very reasons.

My income tax has halved and i if i choose the local private school i get a tax refund annually.

I live in a land of very rich people where private schooling is considered ridiculous unless you a foreign or intend to travel and choose the IB.

When my ds attended a local school I was involved in tons of fund raising and as other posters mentioned this added to the success of the school.

Duchesse - I think you're right, the ethos of a school is very important. I think teachers and governors can do a lot to promote a positive ethos, and there is clear evidence of this in the schools that get turned round by radical new heads.

However, I think the demographics also play a major role here. My dd's state primary does have a really positive, aspirational ethos, and I know that we're very lucky in this respect. I'm sure that some of it has to do with the wonderful headteacher and her staff, but it inevitably helps that a very large proportion of her pupils are the children of academics or researchers. These kids come from families which value education very highly, and they will be well supported outside of school. Many of these parents could pay for private education, but I wonder what would happen to our school if all of those who could go private suddenly did. I suspect that the school's ethos and results would suffer!

I am not for a moment suggesting that wealthier parents are the only ones who value education and support their children. It would be impossible to make such generalisations, and I really feel for those parents who care deeply about their kids' education but just can't afford to do anything about it. But I do think the demographics make a big difference and pushing those on higher incomes out of the state system is not going to solve the problem.

Thank you, that's ever so nice of you. She does indeed duchesse. Red Ballon are (and this is something which I only very recently learned and which has shocked and angered me) the only school of it's type. No other school, private or state, provides for children who have been severely bullied. Nor does the government at present consider such children as having SN so there is no provision for them within LA's, ring-fenced or otherwise. Indeed, IME and in that of Red Balloon's founder, LA's are openly hostile to them.

RB have worked marvels not just for DD2 but for us as a family in one and a half short terms. Every time I meet their staff and founder I'm close to tears for it, they must think me an utter loon, but I know that without them (and, I must say, the advice and support given on the education parts of MN by pr47bridge, Minx and Admissions), my DD could have ended up as another bullied child suicide statistic.

I'm going to take this as a cheeky opportunity - if you have the chance, whether as bystander, parent of bullied or non-bullied child or potential volunteer, be that as educator, fundraiser, admin or whatever, go to a Red Balloon school and see for yourself. Walk in and - and PLEASE bear in mind that I'm a dog-centric, not child-centric person who isn't given to airy-fairyness - FEEL the warmth and welcome.

Dogs, I don't know if you can afford any fees at all for her, but Sands School in Devon is relatively cheap (under £3000/term) and I've heard wonderful things about it from people with children there. It's a kind of Summerhill type school for secondary pupils, set up after Dartington Hall shut in the 80s. If you're at the original RB school it's a long way for you but you never know...

DBF - have never heard of red balloon schools but it sounds marvellous. So sorry about what your dd must have gone through before she got there, but so pleased that things are working out for her now.

I would love the opportunity, duchesse and would move to wherever it takes but sadly funds don't allow for it though I am a big fan of the alternative, Summerhill style approach. A simlar approach, albeit from a very different type of school, made a huge difference to my Dad's outcome and outlook many years ago. Tis the down-side of being a lone parent of 2 and having autonomy of decision and lifestyle! Given the chance I would have done as you have and independently educated - all flaming power to you despite the detractors, for putting your children above the bigger house/nicer area/car/holidays or whatever it is you've sacrificed.

magicmummy, here's more about Red Balloon

Disclaimer - I don't, haven't and am unlikely to ever work for or be paid by RB. My DD is there for just 2 terms and returns to mainstrean in September - neither she nor I have anything to gain by me singing their praises, they just deserve it so very much, that's all.

And yes, duchesse, DD is at the original RB. :)

I just wondered if there were any chance your LEA might pay for her to go there or somewhere like it when she is "discharged" from RB (so to speak). They have a bursary system as well, only up to 30% off though sadly.

Another alternative is Christ's Hospital or King Edwards Witley, where you can get 100% sponsorship, but I doubt that boarding would be appropriate for a young person who's been severely bullied. Also they are not at all alternative.

Having said what I said earlier. Now that I think about it, I don't have children yet and unlikely that I ever will due to fertility issues.

I am paying a hefty amount of tax some of which is going to pay for schools I have not and probably never will use. How is that fair? Perhaps I should demand a refund of taxes for the part that goes towards the schools.

It looks great, DBF. I'm fortunate not to have faced the issue of bullying as a parent, but I went to school with a girl who committed suicide as a teenager because of the horrible, horrible way in which she was treated. I didn't know her well, and had no idea of what was going on until it all came out afterwards, but I was always rather haunted afterwards by the thought of what she must have gone through. I wonder how different things might have been if she had been given the opportunity to spend some time in a school like the one your dd is at now.

It's a great pity that there aren't more schools like this, and that they don't get a bit more publicity - I bet many people are unaware of their existence.

The LAs decision at first, duchesse, was a PRU or nothing (PRU costs £6K per term as does Red Balloon, incidentally). That's what I had a 6-month fight against, including taking my case to the Local Government Ombudsman who found in my favour and ordered an apology and to my surprise financial compensation. Oddly the LA wanted to send DD to a PRU for an indefinite terrn without any promise that she wold return to mainstream at all but when they were begrudgingly forced to decided to send her to RB they concluded that she would only need two terms of alternative provision before she returned to mainstream school so they'll sure as dammit be unwilling to provide more.

Where IS that veiled face, dodgy decision emoticon! :o

DD is all set to return to a new state mainstream school in September having completed her 2 term funded time at RB. I'm quaking at the prospect and if I had the means would keep her at RB or find an independent school for precisely the reasons you've given for opting for it for your own DC. I hope - indeed I'm damn sure - that you'll never experience what we have and am bloody glad that if heaven forbid you do with the school of your choosing you don't just have the means but also the willingness to sacrifice the luxuries in life to find an alternative school for your child/ren. Many parents don't have that choice, I'm one of them and I sympathise and empathise with them. Those who do but who would rather the cars, bigger house, holidays or who would rather make a political point at their DCs expense, well, those I simply don't understand.

Unfortunately we were heading that way with DS even at the age of 6, Dogs. It wasn't just the children either... I utterly lost confidence in the state system as he'd been through 3 schools by the age of 6, and not because he was badly-behaved either. Looking back, my biggest mistake was to send him to school in the first place. There were times when he was small when I worried so much about what would become of him, he was so unhappy and unable to vocalise what was happening to him.