to think it's a bit cheeky for the wealthy to monopolise places in the top state schools instead of coughing up for private?

[rainbowtoenails]

I've read a lot of the education threads on here and lots of people seem to despair that they can't get into their local state school unless they live within a few feet, where the house prices spike up by several thousands of pounds.
I agree but I'm going to take the arguement one step further by saying that I think its wrong for someone who can easily afford it, to forgo private schools, and take up places at the most oversubscribed state schools, often by using their money to inflate local house prices.
I know that these people have paid their taxes for the state schools but we all pay tax for services we dont use.
If everyone who could afford it went private there would be a lot more spaces in the top state schools for pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds. I firmly beleive that the top state schools should not only serve the rich. This perverse system means that lower income families are paying tax to provide an education they themselves have no access to.

mrsravelstein With respect that's pretty much happening now anyway, but the benefit cuts will either deal with that issue or certainly make it less appealing.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that all schools graded outstanding are like the one we encountered but too many of them rest on their laurels and Ofsted don't care one jot because the SATs are so high. Well....so they bloody well should be when the kids were all reading at 3 and going to 'computer club' at 2yrs!

Le Queen
Grammar schools that our parents Generation attended
(every child in the UK took the 11 plus, no private tutors, one third at Grammar, one third at Secondary Modern, one third at technical school, 5% went to University)
bear NO COMPARISON AT ALL with the Grammar schools of today (all 167 of them)
If grammars are so good, are you still happy with Secondary Moderns?

Chen
the real point is that most stories in the media (and also Mumsnet) about Secondary School choices relate to areas where there are problems with the system - particularly Central London.
Out in the sticks the vast bulk (around 98%) get into their first choice of the good local comp schools.
There are lots and lots and lots of good schools that educate a huge range of children

• but nobody would buy a newspaper that ranted about how well things were working...

Everyone has free choice in where to send their children to school, thank god we live in a society like that....

That was my point, LeQueen. The school could have been amazing but the HT was so sats obsessed and results driven that the curriculum was streered on a very narrow path. Part of the problem was that this was in an area of Cheshire which was saturated with independent schools and he (HT) seemed to want to run the school like a free version of this if that makes sense.

So the school was hugely over-subscribed as it really did appeal to those who would have paid for exclusivity and academic results but for those of us that wanted more breadth of education, it just didn't meet the grade.

spotty that is such a shame. When the school I work in has "creative curriculum" weeks and go a little off tangent, everyone loves it, even the teachers.

The trouble is, SO much pressure is placed on good schools to be top in the SATs tables, that everything teachers went into teaching for, flies out of the window.

And as an underperforming school, we have invested ££££ in 1 to 1 tuition to get the Level 3's up to Level 4, and totally neglected the ones who are capable of reaching a Level 5. Hardly likely to attract a the more upwardly mobile parents and so the cycle continues.

Why the hell should they? What if they don't believe in it? Many parents (rich included) may want their children to educated in schools with children of varying backgrounds and abilities, which you won't get in a private/public school.

wellcerealqueen you do get that, but no-one believes me!

Have you ever heard of Bursaries? Scholarships? And there aren't just one or two. 2 or 4 per class is quite normal.

"Many parents (rich included) may want their children to educated in schools with children of varying backgrounds and abilities, which you won't get in a private/public school."

Bangs head against wall, you won't get it in your average CofE school either though. I went to view a state school we are considering and counted the boden coats on the rack as we went out, there was no diversity of creed, colour or income at that school. Not a single non white child in the entire school, now as it happens I don't want that for my children so we go private where they mix at least with children from different cultures.

Diabolo, before I gave up teaching to become a very happy TA I was on the AST track. A bit of nonsense really as I was often sent into classes where the teacher there was as good as, and sometimes better than me. Anyway, I digress, it gave me the opportunity to teach in such a wide range of schools and convinced me that 'outstanding' schools were not always the best, most rounded, most exciting schools at all.

Of course, many 'outstanding schools are just that but the best teaching and most expert use of the curriculum I have ever seen was in a school struggling to get itself out of special measures. They had one of the highest rates of FSM in the country and their infant baseline assessments (as they were) were shocking. They actually had a SALT on the staff 2 full days a week who told me that most of the children's with S&L problems simply have speech delay due to lack of stimulation rather than any physical or cognitive problem.

How on earth can that school ever be expected to compete with schools such as the one in my old area? Of course the government say they take all this into account but when it comes down to it, the Scores on the doors are what matters to them.

Your HT sound great, LeQueen. Since moving away from 'Northern Surrey' as DH calls it, we have found a fantastic state school far superior to what was on offer from the private sector.

Ishani, as a general rule, most state schools are more mixed!

spotty you sound like my kind of teacher. Go back to it and come and work at my school please?

I am probably going to send my son from his Prep to one of the local Upper schools at 13, he knows many people who will be going there through "out of school activities" and I don't want him to grow up with a narrow view of the world. We are in catchment for it. It is OFSTED outstanding and is actually very good / diverse / creative and a little "off the wall".

But I really resent being told I shouldn't do this, by someone who knows nothing about me (OP). Making "rich" parents send their kids exclusively to public school is hardly going to break down class barriers is it?

I do agree with Le Q. Our DS attends an outstanding primary with teeny class sizes. It's in an affluent rural area. Majority of the parents are professionals, and they generally seem to take a real interest in their child's education, so the school has utmost support. The population is engaged at the outset. Helps in making an outstanding school.

Parents tend to make a choice based on what's best for their children.

As I said, seems everyone on this site lives in affluent rural area's with outstanding primaries with teeny class sizes, with nice middle class parents doing their bit to counter act the negative effects of any lower income kids / parents that may have blagged their way in.

So to all those moaning minnies banging on about inequality of choice: move along, nothing to see here, the system is just fine as it is.

"Parents tend to make a choice based on what's best for their children."

thanks for the profound insight

altho probably not that constructive for those not in a position to offer / not being offered what's best for their children.

People earning over 40K already pay a levy, its called income tax.

Some towns don't have private schools. Why should my kids be forced to travel miles to get to school.

Chen you don't have to be in a position to buy a house in an affluent area,people can rent,many do.

Also there are many,many areas with good/outstanding schools and a variety of housing.The op is simply wrong if she thinks all good/expensive schools have expensive catchment areas,they don't.

I could throw my kids over the school fence I live that close. Believe you me I'm not rich,couldn't afford private fees and I don't live in an expensive house.

Renting yes of course, once you're over the no DHSS notices everywhere you then navigate the credit check system at your own expense, just the 3 grand deposit and rent in advance to find. Really I don't understand why more poor people don't just rent in the best postcodes the fools.
Maybethe rich don't want to go private but maybe the poor wish they would.

Two I would say .... I've also been waiting for the let them eat cake comment

"Chen you don't have to be in a position to buy a house in an affluent area,people can rent,many do."

so your solution for those who can't afford the very, very high house prices in many of these catchments is to instead pay the very, very high rents instead! Genius solution......

I'm not coming at this with a chip on my shoulder btw, I am lucky enough to be in a position where I can comfortably afford to live in an affluent area where my (madly overpriced) house is in the catchment area for a superb local state school. Doesn't make me blind to the unfairness of the current situation or make me wish it wasn't different.

The OP's extreme and unworkable solution seems to have given some posters an opportunity to present it as a 3 way choice between enforced private schooling for the children of the wealthy, communism or everything remaining exactly as it is. [hmmm] There's also been a chorus of people saying that they live in the catchment area of an outstanding local school populated by children of wildly varying backgrounds who live in million pound houses and social housing, like that was some kind of proof that there isn't really any inequality in educational options open to people. My personal favourite was the 'fact' that education inequality is just a media myth and that outside London 98% of people get into good local state schools. Sorry, but I'm not convinced.....