To NOT want to clean my house in order to sell it

[NorksAreMessy]

we have been renting since November. We thought it was a long let, but in January, our landlord decided to put the house on the market, having failed to sell it last year. Three months, we had been here, and now who knows what will happen.
There are several problems with the house. The shower has never worked, the front door glass is cracked and could easily be pushed in or shatter, the central heating is rubbish, the under sink pipe is wrongly comnected..loads and loads of other problems NONE of which have been solved, despite phoning the agent LOADS of times.

We now have a letter saying that before we have a viewing, we should clean the windows, clear crumbs off the counters, empty bins, not feed the cat smelly food etc etc etc.

I am a bit pissed off about this, but I thought the MN jury could advise me. Obv. I will clean to a certain level, out of courtesy, but windows? Normal children's nonsense?

They are trying to sell our home out from under us, and want us to help, yet will do nothing to make the house gorgeous for us, or potential buyer.

AIBU?

Island, if the LL wants to sell, then it's only sensible to not piss off the tenants by refusing to do what he is legally obliged to do (repairs), especially if he wants their help. You can't take peoples money and then expect them to actively and willingly accommodate the selling of that house, when you haven't fulfilled your own obligations to them.

If I was paying rent, then I'd not show people around the house. If I'd agreed to in my contract, then it would be at my convenience. If the LL wants everything to suit them, then he needs to not renew the contract at the end of the lease and then sell his house!

Reading this thread is it any wonder that so many LL are complete sods?
Really?

People saying they would be unco- operative and some downright difficult. Why? Why deliberately piss off your LL who holds all the cards?

Selling the house and the repairs are two entirely separate issues and you should deal with them as such.

I am a LL and i STILL can't believe that other LLs try to sell a property with tenants in it.

I am shocked actually.

I am in the process of selling my flat, i evicted the tenants before the house went on the market, then i rented privately to a friend who needed somewhere for 3 months at a greatly reduced rate and she did veiwings and kept it very clean in exchange for paying only half of the going rate.
Then i took the hit of it being empty for another 2 months before getting an offer which we're now working on concluding.

I would NEVER have expected commercial tenants paying the going rate to accommodate sales viewings.

[When tenants gave notice and i needed new tentants i DID expect them to acoomodate those viewings but that's not the same].

The landlord doesn't hold all the cards, even in the UK where he hds more cards than he deserves.

You have rights as a sitting tenant. You do not have to accede to his unreasonable demands to sell his house for him.

If he wanted co-operative tenants he should have made sure the place he is charging you to live in was in a reasonable state of repair.

He didn't, despite his legal obligations.

Therefore he doesn't get to make demands of you. You don't have a good relationship because he is taking your money while not living up to his responsibilities. So you owe him nothing in the way of flexibility or being generous.

Seriously, landlords who think their property rights mean they "hold all the cards" and are prepared to exploit that power to fuck over people in a weaker position than them are a fucking menace.

Karma and its only sensible for a tenanat not to piss off their LL if they want a reference to rent another property.

And is he legally responsible for doing all the repairs take the shower its not working, but if the tenant has a bath they can use and the shower is an extra then does the LL actually have to replace it, of its the only form of bathing the tenant has then thats a different matter, also the central heating, again is there another form of heating IE gas or electric fires after all many home owners dont have central heating or showers are these really must haves instead of would like to haves.

I reread the Ops mention of her door, again she must have walked through
the door when she viewed the property but she made the choice to rent the property anyway.

Thats is the only thing I feel she needs to pull her LL up on if its as bad as she says and is a safety risk as well as a security risk.

If he hasn't protected your deposit he cannot legally serve you notice to quit EVER. Do not ask him or tell him this- phone the three deposit protection schemes and ask them if they have your deposit.
This happened to me after my landlord promised it would be my home for years and I gave up a housing association property to rent it.
Thankfully I had lovely neighbours who would allow their lovely but scary looking Staff dog to "escape" and run into our kitchen every time we had a viewing, and who played really loud music through the walls. I also left mouse traps all around the house for the viewings.
The estate agents actually made out it was my house that I was selling to the viewers, and I promptly told them that oh no if I owned this house I would have replaced the smelly carpets and fixed the broken boiler.

Your landlord lied and used you- yes you cleaned it and tbh so did I just because of my pride- but I made sure I made it as difficult as possible to sell because he promised me a long let and then left the country and tried to sell it from under me.

It is your home and it is really cheeky to expect you to acccomodate viewings- trust me this is the first one, after 4 or 5 you might want to start making kipper soup!

Also yes landlords are real people, but they are charging you more than their mortgage payments usually. Why is that fair? I am paying my landlords mortgage for him plus extra, because I "cannot afford" to get a mortgage, but funny how I manage to pay someone else's every month.

Renting is really not fair in this country.

Rant over!

Thank you all for your advice and opinions, I am very grateful.
DH and I went for a long walk and left DS to let the estate agent show the people round.
The house looks gorgeous, and all my housework got done really quickly, instead of me poootling about for hours.

BUT, thank you for the comments about selling a property with tenants in it. Before I read those, I assumed it was 'the done thing' and we just had to suck it up, but if it is more common to sell an empty property, that would make sense, too.

My loins are girded to have another rant on Monday about all the outstandng issues, and we will continue to keep the house tidy, more or less

But I have food (kipper soup) for thought :o

messybedhed - if you were daft enough to give up a permanent tenancy on someone's promise - then you get what happens, I'm afraid.

Sometimes LL HAVE to sell because they hit problems etc . If you want a permanent home, don't rent someone else's house. Buy your own or rent a HA house. Simple as.
Actually, renting can be very fair. My ( lovely!) tenants get to live in a beautiful house they can only dream of being able to buy. I know they can't get a mortgage to buy it as I offered them first refusal.

It is MUCH cheaper to rent in many cases than get a mortgage and many people rent precisely because they can live in a better house than one they can afford to buy.

messybedhead it is fair because you agreed to it! Nobody forced you to take a particular property at a particular rent and for a particular term. Well done you for screwing your LL on a technicality and then being mean enough to sabotage his viewings. He might well have had his life's savings in that property and be relying on it for retirement. He did NOTHING wrong to you (if he was trying to do something illegal, then he would be in big trouble as the courts are very good at protecting peoples homes). He provided you with a home you wanted and could afford for an agreed term. Tenants like you will only result in there being fewer properties to rent, at a greater cost. Get yourself a mortgage if you think that it would cost you less than the rent. Don't deprive others of their livelihoods and capital because you don't think it "fair" even though you freely entered into the bargain.

I think some people have missed it but the OP was told that the door/shower etc would be repaired BEFORE she moved into the property. What the OP should have done is got it in writing. There is absolutely no harm whatsoever in warning anyone who views the house that if the ll says he will do repairs before they move in that's likely not to be true.

I'm sure there are some good LLs out there but I never had one when I rented. Most aren't interested in the service they are providing to the tenant but in the rental income and the investment aspect. You'd think with the latter, it'd make sense to carry out repairs that need done but a lot just don't bother because they would rather blame tenants and not pay back the deposit using it to fund the maintanance of the property. The fear/expectation that tenants have that they won't get their deposit back is pretty universal, isn't it? What a landlord refuses to count as normal 'wear and tear' is often ridiculous. And lots of landlords are 'buy-to-let' opportunists who never took the role of landlord seriously anyway. They're really not a group that deserves much sympathy in my experience. Tenants should get references from prospective landlords about how they have treated previous tenants. And the estate/rental agencies are a joke - just a buffer so the LL doesn't need to directly deal with the tenants -they don't force the LL to keep his/her end of the bargain.

I know quite a few LL.

All have lovely houses the people they rent to couldn't afford to buy.

I have horror stories that involve trashing, pets, soiling carpets, non payment of rent, sub letting.

If a tenant takes on a shitty house, he can move. if a LL take son a sitty tenant they will be screwed over.
I only rent to professionals and have been exceptionally lucky so far.

Yes he did something very wrong to me- he did not protect my deposit and legally I was entitled to take him to court and have him repay 3 X my deposit.

This is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT which he did not do.

Also I don't know where you live but I can assure you that in London paying rent is more than paying a mortgage.

I know this because subsequently my neighbours bought the house and kept us as tenants, and I am paying rent (which is at the going rate maybe a bit less) which is a hundred pound more than his mortgage.

I gave up a HA flat because it was horrible and in a bad area and I didn't want my children to grow up there. Plus we were on the second floor with no garden. I chose to move out a bit and rent a property with a garden - if that makes me a fool then oh well perhaps I am.

All I am saying is some of us don't have £30,000 in savings or an inheritance or helpful parents. When you are paying rent which is more than the cost of a mortgage, funnily enough its not easy to save for a deposit.

But the whole bias against non-'professionals' is so indicative if how the type of buys property to rent to others think. A non-'professional' can be a good tenant. Dare I say that a person who is in receipt of benefits can be a good tenant. But , 'I know quite a few LL. All have lovely houses the people they rent to couldn't afford to buy' so it's an act of charity for the plebs then?

So did you take him to court?

I would have if I could get three times the amount back.

Of course rent is cheaper! You talk about your rent being £100 more than the mortgage but you clearly haven't factored in the tens of thousands the LL would have had to put down as a deposit!

Floyjoy - I need to ensure my rent is covered and my mortgage gets paid. My houses are also expensive so usually only professionals can afford the rent.

It is a fact that most people who rent can't afford to buy. Otherwise, presumably most would rather than line the pockets of evil bastard, landlords?

Messy, we own properties because while our friends were out drinking, buying flash cars and living it up we were driving round in a battered Fiesta and renting out rooms for peanuts to friends in crumbling terraces whilst we did them up.

When I rented in Chester I was paying 3 times more per month to rent a 1 bed flat than I was paying when I bought a 2 bed house. We couldn't 'afford' a mortgage but our bank allowed us to self certify on the basis that we had been managing to pay such a high rent without any problems. They probably don't let you do that anymore though.

If the house is in such bad condition and the LL so awful, why do you want to stay there?

I know moving after a couple of months is a PITA (I rent, so know what it's like), but really why stick around somewhere that makes you so unhappy? Why not find a better house with a decent LL and let your current LL deal with his crap house on his own.

Dh and I rented a beautiful garden flat in Kennington many moons ago, through the agent with blue logo and capital W. We wanted a long lease. The agent said that the LL also wanted a long lease, but because she was a cautious old lady, she wanted a 6 month break clause, as she was nervous about letting the flat. But we seemed like a nice young couple, so the agent said we were likely to stay for years and years....

We were served notice after 4 months.

I went to see the LL in her home, around the corner, asking her what we had done wrong, seeing that she had served notice early. She was most surprised, as she had told the agent she wanted a short 6 month let, as her daughter was moving into the flat! She let us live rent free the last two months, as she was so upset that we had been misled by the agent.

In our case, it was a dishonest agent who had possibly realized they would not get the flat let for just 6 months, so fibbed to get us to take the lease.

You do realise that under law you have the right to quiet enjoyment, and that overrides anything in the tenancy that states you must allow people to view?

You have every right to say you're not allowing any viewings at all.

Personally I'd say that I'd allow viewings twice a week but only once the repairs had been done.

messybedhead You say that LL is ripping you off because he is charging you more than a mortgage but you then say you can't get a mortgage.....this makes the comparison meaningless: he is taking a risk on your creditworthiness which the banks are unwilling to do and you are obtaining somewhere you have chosen to live for a rent you have freely agreed to pay (before you found a way to get out of it). I bet he now wishes he hadn't. If all tenants behaved like you, then there would be very few private landlords around. Luckily most tenants have more morals and perspective.

It is well recognised that the legal requirement to protect a deposit is important so that tenants do not get ripped off at the end of the tenancy. However it is also recognised that the law was inadvertantly misdrafted (and will be amended when there is time in the legislative body) and gives the tenants disproportionate recompense if the LL does not secure the deposit, rather than just providing an incentive for the LL to return deposits when due. You have exploited this loophole. Bully for you. I would have sympathy for you if your LL had not returned the deposit but no, you got a windfall because he had not secured it as he should have. What you have done is the equivalent of rich people exploiting tax loopholes, or of MP's designating bedsits as main residences to get paid allowances - you have acted within the letter of the law, but against its spirit and at somebody else's cost. You should be ashamed of yourself. You have justified it by saying that you are paying more than the cost of a mortgage to some theoretical person who has a mortgage BUT YOU PERSONALLY could not get a mortgage at that rate.

Right, so tenants have to be responsible and decent and fair, but the people who have taken on the responsibility for providing a decent place for them to live, in return for money, can shaft them at every opportunity, and that's OK?

You people seem to think that the very fact of owning property makes you better than those who don't.

People who become landlords choose to invest their money that way. There are other ways to make money, but if you choose one that gives you a responsibility for providing for one of the most basic needs of other humans, then you have a moral duty to do that well. Unfortunately your legal duties currently don't come even close to matching that.

Also unfortunately, as is clear on this thread, there are a lot rackrenting wankers who think their wealth and luck puts them on a higher footing that the people they rent to; who think that their property rights are more important than the rights of people without property to have a secure home of a reasonable standard.

It all leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth. And even if all tenants were able to stand up for themselves as well as messy, these bastards would still be landlords because it's easy money unless you have a social conscience.

PS I am a landlord

We are motivated and riled.
DH has gone to look at a different house this afternoon.
We are motivated. Plus we will learn from our mistakes...get stuff fixed BEFORE we move in if necessary, chase things up quickly, check exact length of tenancy.

Sad that the LL will have a house that he is having trouble selling, but will now have no tenant ( who will take on a house without at least six months tenancy?), which I suppose might give him the chance to put right all the problems.

Still would much rather stay here though :(

"If you want a permanent home, don't rent someone else's house. Buy your own or rent a HA house. Simple as."

Lol at "simple as" thousands of people don't have the option to do anything but rent off private landlords.