To think that if there was low cost childcare in the UK then Cameron wouldn't need to whine about benefit scroungers?

[ChristinedePizan]

We are on holiday in France at the moment and I'm really impressed by the state's provision for childcare. Pre-school is free from the age of 3 and there is wraparound childcare either side of school from 7.30am - 6.30pm. At a cost of £1 an hour. If we had that in the UK it would make it worthwhile to go to work even if you were low paid. Whereas if you're paying the school £5/hour then if you're earning NMW it's really not worth it.

Nomore money needed!, small reduction made in benefitsthat can be made up be joiing in the community care scheme, all in receipt of benefits putting in a few hours each month to care for lil ones and the old folks :)

I can't believe a childminder would charge £3 an hour - way below the minimum wage?? My cleaner is £8 an hour and my childcare costs every month are £900 bur use childcare vouchers towards this.

K999 - CMs often charge below NMW per child because they look after more than one. So hourly rate is (usually) a lot more than £3/hour

I would feel guilty paying someone £3 an hour to watch my DCs!! What's the going rate if a CM only has one or two mindees?

Childminders can earn well above minimum wage even by charging well below minimum wage to each set of parents. I guess if you only have a couple of mindees, you do earn less, but the potential is there to take on more.

True I suppose. Even so, I'd still feel guilty handing over £8 an hour to my cleaner and £3 to someone to look after my kids. Maybe I'm in the minority with this one?

I know that nurseries are more expensive than childminders but round here even the childminders charge more than £5 per hour.

Childminders here also charge about £3 an hour. Nursery is about £40 a day as I understand it. I agree that if more affordable child care was available it would make life a little easier for those who can and want to work. There will always be some that CBA.

Tax credits pay the bulk of childcare anyway so lowering the cost wont encourage the workshy back as they already get heavy subsidies should they choose to work.

Scrap tax credits altogether and then use that money to fund the £1 an hour childcare and then it would benefit all those who work, no renewals, no fraudulant claims and no working the bare minimum letting WTC pay the rest.

I remember a discussion a whole ago about cheap childcare in France and the majority of the French mumsnetters were saying its cheap but crap standards.

Who would pay to subsidise all of this childcare at £1 an hour? And what quality would you expect for that money?

I always find it odd that one of the most important purchases you will ever make, ie paying someone to care for your child, is expected to be of the highest quality but cost peanuts.

Highly qualified caring staff need paying decent wages.

Happy, not all folk use tax credits to pay for childcare. Some folk use them to (get this) scrape by......

Good post Miniwedge.

It would, in my experience at least, get a LOt of women I know back in work. I have a number of friends who gave up work post baby as they earnt less after tax than (London) childcare. Or at least far less than beneifts. in London I have a good job (teacher, plus management) yet I take home about 75% childcare. Two kids and even with a good job I couldn't afford to work. I do so mainly so the job is still there for me in few years time. Countless Mums at my school seem to be in the same boat.

I charge 60 pounds a day per child and 7 pounds an hour but I'm in Putney !

Council funded daycare - not for profit. Staff costs £1500 a week. Rates and rent £1000 a week. 20 children @ £20 a day per DC = £2000. Just a vague idea obviously but you get the idea. I get 40% of my childcare costs paid and we're not low earners. If it cost 50% of what it costs now that would be a lot less for the govt to hand over to me each week.

Not to mention that childcare costs are discounted from income when you are applying for housing benefit - so there's a whole other pit of money being paid to parents by the state to offset expensive childcare. State funded, not for profit childcare would save money in a few years but would cost to set up, no govt will implement a sensible long term plan over short termism, that's the nature of short term govt.

Exactly Eric.

DH and I previously worked, he was ft and I did 4 days. Nursery was subsidised through DS being entitled to a state place at a private nursery so he had 15hrs a wk paid by local council. We paid for DD to go.

Kids went from 8.30am to 4.30pm (when their lovely grandparents collected them and gave them tea) four days a week. We paid from 8am-6pm as this is a 'nursery day'. It cost us £280 a week (£360 without council contribution).

Thankfully both DC's are now in school, however we have DC3 on the way and have moved away from family etc. This has spurred me on to start a business that I can work around the new baby and older DC's school hours as wrap around care in our district is £28 a day for 2 kids!

Cheap childcare (to the parent), doesn't have to be crap. The govt would be making up the difference so the carers would still be getting their usual rate.

We are in Quebec where there are 2yr waiting lists to get childcare, especially for under 2s. There is a province scheme of $7/day care. Some childminders/nurseries are able to only charge this amount from the start. Others charge the full amount, varying from $35-$50 per day IME. Based on your household income you can apply to receive a portion of that back. At around $80k/yr you will receive all but $7/day back. You can have it monthly or at the year end tax return. We should be able to claim about 20% of our cost. You have to visit a few and determine the quality of care. I've managed to get DS2 into a place where a couple of friends have their wee ones. She is a lovely Iranian who is wonderful with the kids and as a bonus cooks them persian food for lunch.

In the summer holidays there are summer camps from as little as $100 per week. We can also claim 20% of this back on our taxt return as well as for DS1s private preschool and after school care when he starts big school.

I don't know how long this system has been in place, but it works, and if governments want to invest in their country and get people out working, then these are the types of schemes to implement with a view to the long term.

If you are on minimum wage you get it through tax credits. I have never paid anything for childcare as you get 70% from childcare element and 30% from other tax credits so you dont have to contribute at all

and yeah 3 pound an hour for childminders is going rate here. Never known it to be more than 4 quid at the very highest as that is more expensive than a nursery

We have this in Belgium too. School is from 2.5 years and the school remains open 7.30 am til 6pm. It costs me about 40 euros per month, and it's about 40 euros per week for the commune run holiday club. It is all tax deductible too. In my experience it is not all crap - more like fecking fantastic!

With the little ones, it tends to be a mix of organised games/activities and free play. From Primary age, there are games etc available and they are left to get on with it. They use the exisiting school buildings which I guess keeps the costs down. It's cheaper because they just don't do the staff/child ratio that you get in the UK.

My dd went from a UK creche at 2 with a ratio of maybe 5 to 1, to a Kindergarten class of 27 and one teacher. There was extra help at lunchtimes etc. My mind boggled as to how one person could even get them all to go to the toilet, let alone do anything meaningful. But they do! Dd loved it!

Aargh -the point is that CTC/WTC are criminally expensive to administer. Not to mention a complete PITA to apply for. It's the same reason that CB has always been a universal credit - because it would cost so much to means test it that it would negate any saving. If every parent was entitled to low cost childcare, then it would probably cost no more than our stupidly complex benefits system.

In that case Dora, you are very lucky. Last year tax credits paid for it all as I had been off work for a year and a bit with DS1. Now I've worked for a year (and because the government changed no doubt) they pay hardly anything.
A full day at the CM DS was going to go to was just over £40 a day. And I had to provide nappies. Decided he would get on better at nursery.

Christine, how do you ensure that those getting low paid childcare use that benefit to enable them to work? Ie do they have to be working to be eligible?

I wasn't aware that Cameron was whinging about scroungers - but even if he was, what is the evidence that it is solely/disproportionately a childcare related issue.

Benefit fraud (something that Miliband was condemning this week and that the coalition have also spoken against) is a separate matter and surely unreated to childcare costs?

Miliband has however also this week apologised for Labout having made it too easy fo people to stay on benefits too long. Is this the "whine about benefit scroungers" - because if so, the party attribution is a bit off!