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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Paedophilia compared with homosexuality

55 replies

Graciescotland · 09/06/2011 21:06

There's been lots of posts tonight concerning paedophilia, "nonces", "untoward nursery workers" etc Seems to be a reply in every thread that being a paedophile is a bit like being gay. It's not. I just don't understand how a sexual relationship between consenting adults is the same as perpetrating abuse of some of the most vulnerable people in society.

In a way it's implying that everyone who's not heterosexual, can be lumped together and I think that's incredibly unfair.

OP posts:
hester · 09/06/2011 22:13

Oh, I know you weren't saying that, Milly Smile. I just think the difference between men and women's sexuality is really interesting.

It's all very interesting, but I have to say i can't see it as really important. In the US the whole 'born that way' thing seems very fundamental to the fight for gay equality. Fine, it's a tactic. But for me it's as impossible to pin down as any other nature-nurture debate.

MillyR · 09/06/2011 22:20

I think it is probably really important in the US because they have such a big movement from religious groups and right wing groups to make out that they can turn people straight or prevent children who aren't masculine or feminine enough, for others liking, into something else.

But I do think the 'born this way' thing can lead to prejudice towards people who come out later in life, as there will be an assumption they have been hiding, when actually they may have simply changed.

PaisleyLeaf · 09/06/2011 22:39

I see. A mental illness, rather than an orientation.

ledkr · 09/06/2011 22:53

my friends often babysat my ds's when they were small,they are a gay couple and i was amazed at some people who were otherwise intellligent who questioned the safety of my boys.i got fed up with defending them tbh,shocking to think 20 yrs later some people still hold this misconception.

SuchProspects · 09/06/2011 23:08

I think it depends to a large extent on which definition of paedophilia is being used. To some it is a person who has sex with someone under 16, to some anyone who has sex with a pre-pubescent child. I think those definitions lend themselves to comparisons with the prejudices against gay man that used to be mainstream - that they were deviants who would push their penises into any available asshole. It is ignorant and offensive to suggest that all gay men are basically rapists with a preference for men.

On the other hand the psychiatric definition of paedophilia is more along the lines of a person who is exclusively sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children regardless of whether or not they act on that attraction. Most men who are convicted of sex crimes with children are not paedophiles by that definition because they are also attracted to post-pubescent people. The psychiatric definition is more amenable to comparison with homosexuality. By which I mean the case for a comparison of the nature/nurture issue at any rate is more apt. (Still, some paedophiles will be rapists as will some homosexuals, and some heterosexuals.) I don't think there is enough certainty about how the brain works and how homosexual, paedophilic or other exclusive sexual preferences develop to be at all sure at this time though.

spiderslegs · 09/06/2011 23:25

Or indeed Such heterosexuals????

Because, as one, I certainly have an exclusive sexual preference.....

Have you, honestly, gone mental??

keepingupwiththejoneses · 09/06/2011 23:27

They are NOT the same thing. It has been proven the 80% of paedophiles are straight not gay

PaisleyLeaf · 09/06/2011 23:32

I don't think anyone's said that paedophiles are gay.

  • and how did they survey all the paedophiles anyway?
realhousewifeofdevoncounty · 09/06/2011 23:56

No paisleyleaf - but any gay person would be deeply offended to hear there sexual orientation to be even remotely compared to paedophilia. We all have sexual desire - it is perfectly normal and natural. But how can sexual feelings towards children EVER be normal, or just a variation of normal like homosexuality? It is all about abusing power and trust. Normal adult attraction is multi-factorial, it is about mutual desire, flirtation, a meeting of minds etc. and physical attraction is towards a sexually/physically mature adult. The only way such a thing can ever be perpetrated is in a violent vile way that abuses the VICTIM and robs them of their innocence and inflicts serious trauma and even physical injury. In a similar way that some men have a sexually dysfunctional view of women and become rapists. NOTHING LIKE homosexuality.

PigletJohn · 10/06/2011 00:11

I am willing to believe that heterosexuality is innate, and some people are just born that way.

So why shouldn't "innate" paedophiles be compared to hets?

The "innate" agument is just silly.

EdithWeston · 10/06/2011 07:34

PigletJohn - you're right.

Heterosexuality is also innate and therefore just as good a comparator for the "innateness" of any particular type of sexual orientation.

Those orientations that are inherently non-reproductive seem to have have however a history of being seen as "different" (eg homosexuality not considered "normal" in UK until recently - it was a crime until the 1960s, many were considered to be mentally ill, and there was a different age of consent for many years).

I doubt we shall ever be able to study whether paedophilia is innate. I do not see show you would ever find for psychological study a sizeable group of life-time non-offenders (men or women) who would admit to it. And (to use a phrase from the Guardian a while ago) the "yuk" factor is too great.

So I doubt there would ever be evidence to show one way or another the level of innateness.

And even in the hypothetical situation that you discovered there were, it wouldn't lead to a change in the law. But it might make difference to sentencing options - there'd be no point in trying to treat those found guilty the mental health sector and the unsettling "released as treatment can go no further" would no longer happen. They could just be banged up.

LoveBeingAbleToNamechange · 10/06/2011 07:36

Wasn't there a book that was sold through amazon not so long ago that was all about the fact Peadophiles were just another form of sexuality? I think to them it must be, almost I guess like a fetish. They just can't see how wrong it is. I must admit to not getting how a sexual desire has to be acted on when you know it is wrong, like the bloke who keeps getting done for pleasuring himself in slurry or the ones that interfer with animals.

ledkr · 10/06/2011 07:54

Yes but if you they must be aware of the fact it is wrong when perhaps the child cries or begs them to stop or is injured! If they thought it wasnt wrong why do they go to such lengths to coceal it? It cant be compared to other fetishes involving adults because of the issue of consent,

TeddyRuxpin · 10/06/2011 08:04

Whether paedophiles are born that way or not (which I believe most are) they don't need to act on their desires. In doing so, they are predators of the worst kind; putting their needs (for want of a better word) before the fact that they are committing a terrible crime against helpless, powerless victims.
I don't believe they can be 'cured' any more that it is possible to force a gay person to be straight.
However to liken a loving relationship between 2 consenting adults (gay it straight) to paedophilia is absurd.

TeddyRuxpin · 10/06/2011 08:06

or not it

Cattleprod · 10/06/2011 08:10

MillyR's first post is really interesting. How can paedophilia be innate if it can't manifest itself until adolescence or adulthood? Is it just the failure of something natural to progress to normal adult sexuality, or to be replaced by something more sinister?

For example, from the age of about 5-8, my friends and myself would play 'rude games' with the boys at school. All very innocent, natural curiosity I suppose - a bit of looking and touching and kissing, nothing more. Clearly if I was still kissing and touching 5 year old boys then I would be locked up and rightly so. The point being that most children's first experiences of sexual attraction or experience (I'm not talking full sex here) are with other children. Indeed it would be inappropriate if those first feelings or experiences were with adolescents or adults.

ledkr · 10/06/2011 08:26

Teddy Ruxpin i aggree. I worked in mental health and did come across a few men with those feelings who had never acted upon them and made themselves ill in doing so,ie isolated themselves for fear of temptation,im not sure if thats common or not,im not sure about treatment apart from chemical castration,i am sure that children are more deserved to be protected than a grown adult with a choice.

TeddyRuxpin · 10/06/2011 08:38

ledkr I also came across one person like that while working in mental health wards. This particular man had thoughts and feelings he knew were wrong and the guilt of his feelings caused severe depression resulting in him asking to be sectioned as he was terrified he would act on his fantasies.

Graciescotland · 10/06/2011 08:50

Sorry I don't think I was very clear in my original post although several people picked up on my point that some people have suggested that "paedophilia is a bit like being born gay".

I've also heard this comparison in rl. However, you'd never hear anyone saying "being gay is a bit like being born a paedophile" would you? What's more I'm sure if you did encounter someone cretinous enough to make such a comparison you'd be shocked and amazed by their stupidity.

I think realhousewife put it much better than me please read her post and I shall go attempt to recover my misplaced eloquence.

OP posts:
cantspel · 10/06/2011 09:35

Pedophilia and homosexuality are not in connected in as to say homosexuals are also pedophiles. But i do believe they are both sexual preferences and you cannot change you sexual orientation. In the same way as a straight person cannot catch gayness from having a gay friend or a gay parent.

So someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex will always be sexually attracted to that same sex. And hopefully met a like minded adult and go on to have a fulfilling adult relationship.
And someone who is sexually attracted to children will always be sexually attracted to children. But hopefully will be caught before he has a chance to act on his sexual desires.

hester · 10/06/2011 09:53

But cantspel - you can change your sexual orientation, and many people do. And it's just not true that "someone who is sexually attracted to the same sex will always be attracted to that same sex"

bupcakesandcunting · 10/06/2011 10:02

That comparison has left me boggled.

MN is fucking NUTS at the minute. This is up there as one of the shittiest posts I have read on here.

cantspel · 10/06/2011 10:05

I dont believe that is true but some people may also be bisexual. That doesn't mean they have changed their sexual orientation as they would have always been bi.
I have know a few bi people and their sexuality doesn't change when they are in a homosexual reationship from when they are in a straight relationship. Does that make sense?
Or to put another way a gay woman i knew in a gay reationship would also have the odd one night stand with men as she would meet a man who sexually attrated her and want to sleep with him but she still wanted to keep her female lover. Once her female lover cottoned on to her cheating ways she left her and her next lover was a man who she cheated on with other women (but that is a whole new thread)

Mamaz0n · 10/06/2011 10:15

Being a paedophile in the true sense of the word, having a sexual attraction and desire for a sexual relationship with a minor, is something that is recognised as a sexuality. It is the same as being homosexual, hetereosexual or bisexual.

It describes only your your sexual preference.

It is similar in the respect of it being something that you feel, that you cannot help feeling, just who you are etc.

It is very very different in the respect that to act upon those sexual desires is to break the law. It is to involve a partner who is unable to consent and is therefore wrong in every sense of the word.

However, there are predatory people who abuse and rape children who are not Paedophiles. They are the same as most other rapists, power seeking controlling and violent. They seek out those who are vulnerable and who they can manipulate.

They are often referred to as Paedophiles but that its not necessarily the case. It is a bit like saying that the man in prison for life who sexually assaults his new cell mate is gay. He isn't, he is just a violent rapist.

I can understand entirely why homosexuals would find the comaprison offensive. But Paedophilia is such a taboo subject it is very difficult for people to have a discussion without the flood of emotive posts. Perfectly understandable but not very helpful.

I would say though that as near as 30 years ago people were having these same discussions about Homosexuality. That it was a mental illness that should be cut or medicated out of a person. that they should be locked up for acting upon such illnesses. There are still a fair few today who still hold those opinions.
I hope that there will never be a time were the rape and assault of a child is deemed ok, But I do think that if we were better educated about the REAL issues of paedophila rather than just the scaremongering headlines, then it would be a much safer place for our children.

reelingintheyears · 10/06/2011 10:31

My son is gay...

He is 16 and he is not a fucking paedophile.

DP and i had a full on row about 20 years ago with his parents who were appalled that we still had gay friends after DD was born and said we were irresponsible to let them babysit.

We have no contact any more and DP is even more determined to keep it that way now that DS has told us that he is gay.

They are nasty bigots.

FIL was ashamed to tell his friends and family members when DP qualified as a nurse because he thought it was a woosy job for a man and would reflect on his being a man.