..to think milk formula companies shouldn't price-fix?

[gallicgirl]

We initially used Aptamil as we believed the drippy nurse who told us it was most like breast milk, then had reflux issues to swapped to SMA staydown milk which was slightly less than the Aptamil I think. Now been prescribed infant gaviscon so we've swapped to normal SMA. The first few tins we bought were around the £7.50 mark so we were pleased that we were spending a bit less. Every penny counts and all that.

However, just been to buy some more formula and it was £8.99 in Morrisons. It was also £8.99 in Tesco yesterday. Just checked online and it's £8.99 at Sainsbury's, Asda and Boots (obviously it's more in Mothercare). When I've bought the SMA before it's been slightly different prices in different shops. I know food prices have gone up and shops can't offer discounts and the like, but I'm suspicious that it's exactly the same price in every store.

It's a 20% price rise!!! I can't believe that wholesale costs have risen that much.

nannynick - shops can sell formula at whatever price they like, but it has to be a permanent price not a promotional/temporary one.

There is nothing to stop supemarkets/manufacturers from permanently lowering the price on formula (other than their own profit margins).

What they are not allowed to do is sell it at a promotional low price in order to boost sales and then return to the higher price.

The reason they price fix is to stop people swapping brands every week to buy the cheapest one, as apparently chopping and changing can cause babies problems. Not sure why but apparently it can.

It doesn't cause babies problems, it causes formula companies problems when people switch to cheaper brands!

Did you FF, RitaMorgan? It can cause stomach upsets if you continually swap brands.

HV discourage swapping brands willy-nilly because it can mask illness in babies.

So if a baby is poorly the parent assumes it may have something to do with the new formula they're using and doesn't seek medical attention, when in fact it might be an infection which requires treating.

Spudulika, you said that more eloquently than me

You say apparently it can, how do you know?

I've used three different brands and swapping didn't give ds any stomach upsets.

i fed DD cow and gate. according to boots website it actually 50p cheaper than what i remember paying for it.

i couldn't breastfeed as i had to take medication. i could have not taken the medication but would have been unable to walk and been in a lot of pain. the medication would have gone into my breastmilk and it would have affected her heart. i bf'd for the first two days as i had a c/s and couldn't have done much meds or no meds so i made sure she got some colostrum at least. when i explained to the midwives my situation they were unbelievably supportive. from lurking on mumsnet whilst preg i would have thought i would have got no help as a formula feeder. when i was leaving the hospital the midwives gave me a full box of the jars and teats to bring home. i was disgusted to later find out that i got more support than some BFers. there were girls in my baby club that were on the verge of insanity trying to feed their children. i was supported by the midwives and the hv.

Rita, I know because a number of my close friends had babies who had terrible tummies after swapping brands. I said 'apparently' as I do not have personal experience of this, having never swapped brands when FF - plus it was several years ago and advice may have changed,. I know, for instance, that the guidelines for FF have also been updated since then.

maighdlin, I'm glad you got support. I had immense BFding support, but sadly, having tried for 2 weeks and being desperately ill, expressing almost round the clock to get my supply going, my DS nearly ended up in hospital. The professionals stood back and watched him get sicker and sicker. Eventually, even through the fog of MRSA and various other problems, I could see he wasn't thriving and was actually dehydrated. I switched to formula and they all said 'oh we were so glad you did that. He was getting really ill.' When I pointed out that no one had mentioned their concerns for his health they said their hands were tied by the NHS guidelines. I was really shocked that they would put method of feeding over and above the health and wellbeing of a baby. I would like to think it was a one-off, but it does make me feel that there needs to be a sense of balance - supporting mums who try to BF, advocating it, as it is the best form of feeding, but equally supporting mothers who can't FF and giving them support, too. I had never really thought I would need to FF and consequently knew nothing about it. I had questions and concerns about sterilising and so on, yet no one would advise me as they 'weren't allowed.'

HV still advise you don't swap and change brands. it's ok to do a permanent change but not keep changing frequently.

We've just changed brands for the second time; ie 3rd type of formula, in order to cope with medication for reflux and I would say that I've noticed the difference with DD when we've changed but I wouldn't go so far as to say she had a really upset tummy.

Back to the competition thing - I wonder why supermarkets don't cut their profit margin for formula when they're so competitive over nappies? It would be interesting to get an idea of how many units they sell and what the margin is.

I know people whose baby didn't do well on a particular brand, but no one whose baby struggled because they switched. It works well for formula companies if people believe that once you pick a brand you can't change, because it ensures you won't switch to a cheaper brand. Pricing isn't about babies' health, it's about profit.

My breast milk dried up pretty early on so we used aptimil. My sil in italy told me that it was really bloody expensive in her country (Italy) and I did wonder why it was so much more expensive there. Really bloody expensive.

And here we have the offical guidelines, which clear it up - you are not allowed to discount formula, which is why the prices are the same in each shop:

The Infant Formula and Follow?on Formula Regulations 1995

19.

(d)promote the sale of an infant formula by means of premiums, special sales, loss? leaders or tie?in sales;

Oops. Should say:

19. No person shall at any place where any infant formula is sold by retail?

(d)promote the sale of an infant formula by means of premiums, special sales, loss? leaders or tie?in sales; or

I think that supermarkets don't cut their prices as they would have to do so permanently under the current rules. At the moment supermarkets have price wars then sneak the prices back up on things. You don't notice that the "price match" label from a particular item is no longer there, then the competitor hikes the price too and adds a "price match" label. Then the first undercuts and adds a "50p cheaper than at X" and the dance continues, but bamboozles the customers into thinking that they are getting good value while prices spiral up anyway. If Aptamil was 50p cheaper at Tesco than Asda and C&G 50p cheaper at Asda then you would just get people going to one, stocking up for 3 months (after all babies will predictably need milk) and then shopping at their preferred shop the rest of the time. Nappies on the other hand can be discounted and their bulk puts you off buying months worth at a time. Or, like me, you buy quite a few and then your baby grows out of them.

If it was worth it to them to have lower formula prices then they would do it, but they will have done the analysis and decided what serves them best.

Formula prices are high because someone has to pay for the free bears/cows/advertising/'help' lines.

They are not high to protect breastfeeding or because of 'regulations' which are actually about regulating advertising of formula, not the price.

Formula is not expensive to make - it is basically dried skimmed milk with a few added vitamins and oil. 100g of East End Milk Powder costs 0.63p www.tesco.com/groceries/product/search/default.aspx?searchBox=skimmed%20milk%20powder yet formula costs around 90p per 100g. The mark up is huge.

Swapping brands cannot 'cause' illness (never heard of it masking problems either) because the basic formula for formula is almost identical. HCP are told by formula reps to tell parents this cos the company (who spent good money on the rep/ the rep's car/ the rep's marketing wares/ advertising) don't want profit to go to their competitors.

Is the regulation about pricing there simply because government thinks the price of formula undermines breastfeeding? I bet if you ask parents why they BF rather than FF, the cost of it is pretty far down the list.

Have there been any studies done since 1995 to see of this policy actually works?

The policy on not talking about formula can be ridiculous as in the example above of the poorly baby. It reminds me of those idiots who think if you don't educate children about sex, then they won't have sex.

The price isn't fixed. The regulations just stop temporary reductions. Prices can be permantly (sp?) lowered.

The ridiculous thing about that is there's no rule saying HCPs can't talk about formula - in fact making sure ffing mothers know how to make formula up correctly is part of their job. This board is full of women being advised to give formula (rightly and wrongly) by doctors and midwives.

I don't know why some HCPs have misinterpreted this? I would complain about any that put my baby at risk though.

Funny enough re midwives and formula, I have ff 3 dds, currently still ff dd3 and the first question I was asked by community midwife when she first came out after birth was did I know how to correctly prepare the formula, and was I aware guidelines had change re storage of feeds. With each of my dds the midwife has asked me to describe to her how I make up feeds. I'm in NI and I think we have fairly high rates of ff compared to other UK regions.

The thing that concerns me most about the high and rising price of powdered formula is that I have ffed on demand, i would make 2 bottles up at a time and would be really vigilant re discarding of undrunk? formula but I am now watching every penny and I worry that risks could be taken re trying not to waste bottles already made up.

Here in Italy when I bought some (2003) it cost 28 euro for a 500g tin.

People actually drive up to Austria and bulk buy.

£8.99 sounds pretty damn good to me!

I agree, wiggles, the price is too high and some parents may put the cost above discarding feeds that are old etc. When I attached the guidelines, it was to show that there isn't much competition as they can't do special offers.

However, when you look at the price of powdered milk for regular drinks, you can see that the prices are vastly inflated, even allowing for all the 'extra vitamins' and stuff. The problem is that they have a captive market. If you can't BF, then you have to buy F, so the manufacturers can prices it however they want and know they will still have customers. Whether it is morally right is another matter, of course!

Rita - you are right, too, I should have complained, but at the time I was so ill/shell-shocked by everything that had happened that I wasn't really in a position to do so. In retrospect we should have ripped their heads off for standing by and allowing our DS to get so ill.

That's why so much maternity care is so poor I reckon - because women who have just had a baby, especially when it's been traumatic, aren't in any position to complain!