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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think I'm not 'goulish' for visiting Auschwitz?

307 replies

HumperdinkFangboner · 20/05/2011 19:34

DH and I are going to Krakow early next year, with the intention of visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau. My Granddad's best friend was briefly imprisoned there during the war and he often spoke to us about it when we were children.

Mentioned it to a friend and she called me a Ghoul so I mentioned it to some other people and I get the impression that people think we're a bit odd.

Just wondering if it's in some way insensitive to visit?

OP posts:
suebfg · 21/05/2011 22:50

I'm sure the Nazis tendered for the gas chambers to be built

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 22:52

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WhatGoodIsThis · 21/05/2011 22:56

Aitch, I agree with you.

I came very close to visiting Auschwitz (was living fairly near by in the early 1990s) and decided against it for the very reasons you have mentioned.

As a teenager I went to a small WW1 cemetary in France with other family members. Although it was a moving experience, I also had a strong sense of feeling like I was on some type of 'tourist trail', even though we were visiting the grave of a family member.

edam · 21/05/2011 22:57

My little sister was taught, at secondary school, that 'ordinary Germans' knew nothing about the death camps. I thought this was disgraceful as it is a very dangerous lie. The people who took over the flats of Jewish people sent to the death camps knew ruddy well the actual owners weren't coming back, as did the people who stole their possessions. You can't have death on an industrialised scale without an awful lot of people knowing about it - the number of people involved in transport, production of equipment, staffing the camps etc. etc. etc. must have been tens of thousands.

Original poster
HumperdinkFangboner · 21/05/2011 23:00

" Sat 21-May-11 22:28:46
bipolar it is not a tourist destination in"

"What a silly statement. Of course its a tourist destination"

Bipolar - you missed off the rest of Issey's quote, she said in the Disney Land sense.

TBH The last thing on my mind when taking this trip will be whether or not there is a burger joint or souvenir shop on site!

OP posts:
suebfg · 21/05/2011 23:01

Not entirely sure but if you google it, you will find various companies mentioned including Krupps , Bayer and IG Farben (who held the patent for the gas used in the gas chambers)

Original poster
HumperdinkFangboner · 21/05/2011 23:02

I'm sure I read that Siemens had something to do with the gas chambers.

OP posts:
WhatGoodIsThis · 21/05/2011 23:06

If you read the "corporate history" sections of many German companies' websites, there are sadly many missing gaps during the war years.

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 23:08

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Lovecat · 21/05/2011 23:12

No, but you expected there to be facilities there for you to eat.

Treating the place as a 'tourist destination' IS BLOODY GHOULISH Angry

mathanxiety · 21/05/2011 23:13

Wollheim Memorial site here. If you follow the links there's a lot of information on the extent to which slave labour formed an essential component of the German economy during the years of the Third Reich. Even little bakeries and individual farms used slaves supplied by the SS (the biggest slave dealing organisation in history) as German citizens were called to the armed forces.

AitchTwoOh · 21/05/2011 23:14

i'm not completely sure of pauline's tone here (that might actually be the understatement of the year) but it is a tourist destination, undeniably.

WinkyWinkola · 21/05/2011 23:15

"My little sister was taught, at secondary school, that 'ordinary Germans' knew nothing about the death camps. I thought this was disgraceful as it is a very dangerous lie. The people who took over the flats of Jewish people sent to the death camps knew ruddy well the actual owners weren't coming back"

Well, yes, I'm certain they had a pretty good idea. But what could they do? It's not as if Hitler came to power through democratic means after all.

My mother (who is German) was kept out of her local Jungmadelbund (Hitler Youth for Girls group) by her mother and they were terrified as to what would happen. My mother said her mother found the Russians less terrifying when they arrived in their town towards the end of the war. Whilst there must have been a lot of opportunism that is not unique to the German people, there was an awful lot of fear for ordinary people who didn't dare to speak out.

Back to the question of Auschwitz and all the other death camps, I've always wanted to go. It's not ghoulish. I think it's about honouring those dead by remembering. After all, Yom Ha-Shoah is an annual remembrance by the Jews. My Jewish dh is very solemn on that day. Never forget, he says, those who wanted the Jews dead. But I remind him of the others who died too.

AitchTwoOh · 21/05/2011 23:17

but then so is York Minster and that is sacred ground too etc. in a way i am now wondering if Auschwitz is just the echt-example of my discomfort with tourism on sacred ground... however sincere the intent.

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 23:17

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simpson · 21/05/2011 23:18

I went last year and found it a truly moving experience, although can totally understand why people don't wish to go too....

What really got me tbh was the amount of tourists getting relatives to pose and grin then taking pics where IMO is was totally not appropriate Angry Sad

Lovecat · 21/05/2011 23:21

:) Aitch. I suppose when I think 'tourist destination' I think 'ignorant gits wandering around yakking at the tops of their voices/taking photos of themselves gurning in front of monuments wondering where the burger stand/souvenir shop is' - which is why I think if you go to Auschwitz or any of the camps with that kind of attitude, you are being ghoulish. I'm sure most people don't go with that attitude at all.

I too feel very uncomfortable with visiting touristy churches when abroad, unless it's actually to go to mass.

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 23:21

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mathanxiety · 21/05/2011 23:21

It is a site that is undeniably visited by tourists. Not necessarily therefore a 'tourist destination' though -- again, I would see it more of a pilgrimage site, for tourists and anyone else who wants to visit.

A little like the cemetries of the Somme or Normandy, which are also sobering places to visit, partly because of their scale; tourists go there too. I think they are too sombre to have the description 'tourist destination' but you will find tourists there..

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 23:23

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edam · 21/05/2011 23:24

winky, the scary thing about Hitler is that he DID come to power through democratic means. (The Nazis didn't win an overall majority but got in through PR and a coalition IIRC ? Hitler was appointed Chancellor but only because his party had won enough seats to be part of the coalition. Think 37% of the population voted for them.)

I don't blame ordinary Germans who played no part in the final solution for keeping their heads down ? who knows how brave any of us would be in the same situation? But it's wrong to claim no-one knew. They did. And thousands of people must have collaborated.

BiPolarPauline · 21/05/2011 23:25

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mathanxiety · 21/05/2011 23:27

Well now Pauline, hold on a mo. Churches are built for a specific purpose and that is not gawping and taking photos. I think what Lovecat means is that there should be some understanding of the context of the site you visit and appropriate demeanour when you're there. It's nothing to do with snobbery or looking down on others. Part of experiencing the places you visit is understanding what they are for.

WinkyWinkola · 21/05/2011 23:27

Edam, Hitler was selected as Chancellor by a half senile President Hindenbert who kept evoking dictatorial powers allowed by the constitution. Hardly democratic in itslef! Hitler was jobbed into the role by backstairs intrigue - not swept in by popular vote. Far from it. Then began the waves of terror and murder and the cowing of any political opponents.

Democracy failed - it was certainly not the will of the people being carried out that enabled Hitler to rise to power.

simpson · 21/05/2011 23:28

I did not "gawp" and certainly did not take pics....

Mathanxiety has it imo, it is more of a pilgrimage place than a tourist attraction,

And you want a burger bar there FFS...