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Original poster

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
LadyThompson · 19/05/2011 09:39

Further to my point above to Kungfupanda, I have now read the whole thread and realise you had already appreciated this point.

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 09:41

if he has been working on this for months surely he would have some understanding of the law as it now stands!?

WinkyWinkola · 19/05/2011 09:42

xstitch, xstitch, xstitch. I am so sorry to hear what happened to you. Sad Angry Sad Angry Sad Sad Sad .

Vi8 · 19/05/2011 09:44

I consider myself a feminist, and I've never voted conservative, but don't judges already sentence a rape or any other type of assault according to the evidence and , yes, different degree of gravity? That's why there are court cases and judges have to make a decision.

allsquareknickersnofurcoat · 19/05/2011 09:46

x-stitch I feel for you and cant believe how naive some posters are! :(

I wasnt "proper" raped either. I was at a party and had been flirting with a friend of a friend. I was stereotypically drunk and wearing a short dress. Not very drunk, however I woke up to find myself in a bedroom and the guy I had been flirting with and two of his friends taking it in turns. I didnt try to fight them off or even tell them to stop, there were three of them and part of me didnt want to give them the satisfaction of knowing that they had "won" by getting upset.
There is no way this would have led to them being convicted. I said once to my best friend that I had been raped and she laughed. So I started to pretend that it was what I'd wanted as I thought noone would believe me, and eventually stopped speaking to her.
But I'm torn because I dont think any rape is less serious than another. But if there was a "lesser" rape charge, maybe my rapists could have faced justice? Confused

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 19/05/2011 09:51

The people who will get the most benefit from Clarke being sacked are not rape victims but the right wing of the Tory Party & their friends in the press.

Absolutely, Darsey

And once again, I thoroughly agree with Kungfu

Flisspaps · 19/05/2011 09:51

Carmina "rape when you have known the man for months, maybe years - who knows what type of sex they may have been engaging in prior to the falling out or whatever"

What the fuck has the 'type of sex' you've had with someone before got to do with them raping you? Just because you've had 'rough' consensual sex in the past, it doesn't give them any more right to then rape you in the future than if you'd never had sex, nor does it make the act any less serious.

Vi8 · 19/05/2011 09:53

You should have gone to police. That is rape, and a judge would have taken it seriously...

hellodave · 19/05/2011 09:54

what a massive tit

i think, possibly, maybe i can understand what he was trying to say even if what he was trying to say was a load of old arse, as in there are many different ways in which this awful crime can be enacted. some with more physical force than others, i think we would be mad to suggest all rapes occur alongside extreme physical violence (as in restraint punching etc etc not the act itself).

but how can a senior politician, community representative and supposedly well educated person completely ignore the trauma involved??????

for example, and this isnt intended to open any old wounds for anyone but lets put this in context. one person is raped by the attacker beating them into submission, another is raped and no violence is needed because they are too afraid to do anything because it happens everynight and they know what the consequences of resisting are? yes Mr Clarke the one where violence is used is clearly more serious you clown oh and the person who was subjected to "date rape drugs" probably by someone they knew and trusted...yes Mr clarke surely that must be less serious too!!!

i think this may possibly be yet another case of a politician speaking with authority on a subject he hasnt a clue about

YANBU

SardineQueen · 19/05/2011 09:59

Carmina you are saying that if someone you know rapes you, then it is less bad than a stranger raping you. Here:

"There's a difference in planned rape ( stranger waiting for unsuspecting female in dark alleys etc) and rape when you have known the man for months, maybe years - who knows what type of sex they may have been engaging in prior to the falling out or whatever - I'm not dismissing the seriousness of rape at all - but there are levels of seriousness."

That is utter nonsense.

If your ex partner abducts you and imprisons you for some days, subjecting you to a range of violent abuses, then that is not that bad? Because you have had sex with them before?

It's nonsense.

SardineQueen · 19/05/2011 10:00

All rape is rape.
Some rape comes with other offenses which are also taken into account eg violence, murder.
This does not mean that the rapes without violence or rape are somehow not really proper rape. This is what Ken Clarke said. And it is nonsense. Rape is rape.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 10:04

allsquare I completely understand why you didn't go to the police. I didn't report my rape because I knew people like carmina would have said it wasn't rape and I 'asked for it' had a 'duty' as I wasn't divorced yet. I feared that these people would be the police officer, the judge, jury or the defence lawyer and couldn't face the further humiliation or the punishment I knew I would get from XH's family when he was cleared. I have to say allsquare you ex-friend is a twat of the highest order, as I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy I truly hope she doesn't learn the hard way what a twat she has been. I do hope though she does learn a bit of compassion.

The non reporting is why it is so important that people in power and the public eye chose their words very carefully. They have the potential to scare victims further and reduce reporting rates even further and they are low enough as it is. The only people that helps is rapists. They need to ask themselves is that who they really want to be helping. We already live a society where a rapist as an accused person has a lot of rights and continues to have rights as a prisoner if convicted and sentenced. The victim on the other hand has no rights at all. While I wouldn't advocate a return to the dark ages and guilty until proven guilty I think the balance needs to be redressed with victims having rights to.

Having said that I would go as far as saying that rape accused should have anonymity until convicted to stop any witchhunt. It would protect those tiny percentage who are innocent and actually IMO make it easier for a woman to report it. A vast amount of local publicity is the last thing they need, especialy if they like me live in a small country town. Its bad enough here and thats with me not reporting my rape.

carminaburana · 19/05/2011 10:08

An ex-partner abducting you and imprisoning you is planned rape -
That's not the situation I described at all.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 19/05/2011 10:11

^All rape is rape.
Some rape comes with other offenses which are also taken into account eg violence, murder^

Absolutely. I think some people are missing that - including quite possibly Ken Clarke himself.

I understood him, when he said "we're talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to" as meaning that rape is rape. But then he conflated rape and agravating factors to suggest that rape + other violence = "serious" rape, whereas rape without those agravating factors is less so. Not to mention the rubbish about statutory rape Confused

xstitch · 19/05/2011 10:13

So why was my rape not proper rape then carmina Was it simply because I had known him for years. Was it because technically we were still married?

TandB · 19/05/2011 10:15

LadyThompson - I am a solicitor and a high court advicate. Why do you ask?

SardineQueen · 19/05/2011 10:15

Carmina the "situation" you described was any situation where a person had had consensual sex with their rapist in the past.

"There's a difference in planned rape ( stranger waiting for unsuspecting female in dark alleys etc) and rape when you have known the man for months, maybe years - who knows what type of sex they may have been engaging in prior to the falling out or whatever - I'm not dismissing the seriousness of rape at all - but there are levels of seriousness."

I have posted a situation where a person rapes someone that they have had sex with in the past, and you say "oh no no I didn't mean that".

What you actually mean is that you personally have a list in your head which categorises different sorts of rape, the same as Ken Clarke clearly has a list in his head, as do many other people.

Rape is rape is rape though. The definition of rape is not complex. When rape cases go to court, any associated violence will be chanrged separately and the judge and jury will take the circumstances into account when sentencing. So someone who rapes a partner without violence will get less time in jail than someone who rapes an old lady and then kills them.

Both women have been raped. One rape is not more or less than the other. Rape is non-consensual penetration with a penis. Either they did it or they didn't.

I don't understand why people have a problem with this.

Well I do, actually. They don't want to see men go to prison for raping partners or women who were "asking for it". They only recognise violent stranger rape as rape. This view is wrong and it's why Ken Clarke is in such trouble.

JoanofArgos · 19/05/2011 10:16

I find it disturbing that KC thinks rape has been focussed on by the media 'to add a bit of sexual excitement to the headlines' - is his assumption that rape, and the discussion thereof, is generally found sexually exciting?

xstitch · 19/05/2011 10:16
xstitch · 19/05/2011 10:18

Me too joan I am fed up explaining that rape is not about sexual excitement. I am currently on a one woman campaign to convince people of this and other issues. Well not entirely one woman, other MNers have agreed with me.

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 10:22

what a good and clear post sardine.

LadyThompson · 19/05/2011 10:23

Kungfupanda - was merely curious as to whether you were an HCA, an instructing solicitor without being an High Court Advocate, or counsel. This is off-topic I realise but you mentioned you have been against 'any change in our justice system in recent years' - just wondered to what in particular you were referring?

X-stitch and others - sorry to hear of your dreadful experiences Sad

carminaburana · 19/05/2011 10:24

SQ; exactly - rape is rape, but there are levels of seriousness - that's what I said. Not all rapists receive the same sentence as you have just confirmed.

TandB · 19/05/2011 10:27

Actually, I said "I would be as strongly against it as I have been against any change in our justice system in recent years".

ie, I feel as strongly about suggestions that rape should be categorised as I do about several other major changes that have been made. I could list the mistakes that I think the last government in particular made in relation to the criminal justice system, but none of them are particularly relevant to this thread and it would be a long and dull post.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 19/05/2011 10:27

I am (quite evidently) not a legal expert, but as I understand it rape is rape - but if someone is beaten shitless as well as being raped then their assailant would (or should) receive a more severe sentance than if there had been no physical violence other than the rape itself.