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Original poster

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
biryani · 18/05/2011 19:10

I listened to the interview later, and don't think I heard it all, but he seemed to me to by trying to differentiate cases of consensual sex between an adult and an underage girl from what he termed more "serious" cases, ie non-consensual sex between adults. That seems reasonable enough to me, and if uunderage sex figures count towards the statistics overall, then it is bound to bring down the average tariff accordingly.

Victoria Derbyshire was, I think, too quick to jump on the 5-year average tariff figure to illustrate her assertion that "rapists will be back on the streets after a year and a half" when there was no evidence to back this up.

I think that it was a poor interview, and Clarke was ill-advised to use such an emotive topic to illustrate what was intended to be an attempt at saving costs, and that he should have been better-informed. However, I do not think he should resign, and he has already apologised (presumably under a great deal of pressure).

And isn't it the case that ALL convictions are subject to a reduction in term length for early guilty pleas?

leares · 18/05/2011 19:14

"With this crime I am with yuo swc. I am happy to cast aside my namby-pamby nicey-nicey happy-clappy lefty ideas about rehabilitation, and say lock em up for a good long time and until there is absolutely no chance whatsoever, of them ever ever reoffending."

So they'll be locked up forever

LordofthePies · 18/05/2011 19:15

So its better to be raped by someone you know?

But i think this man holds the views of many, he was just caught out.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:16

"That seems reasonable enough to me, and if uunderage sex figures count towards the statistics overall, then it is bound to bring down the average tariff accordingly. "

For the squillionth time... underage sex, in the sense of his example of an 18yo having consensual sex with a 15yo, is not generally prosecuted in this country! The statistics are not being affected by hordes of 18yo going to prison for having sex with their 15yo girlfriends because it is not happening! He was talking absolute rubbish!

xstitch · 18/05/2011 19:17

YANBU, I am sick of the tripe being peddled recently. Kind of proves I was right not to report my rape. I wonder if that was the money saving effect he was after, Make the victim suffer in silence?

I have just sent a 3 page letter to Ann Widdecombe in response to the rubbish she printed in her newspaper column today Blush

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:18

leares they will be locked up until there is no chance of them reoffending.

Sounds good to me.

celadon · 18/05/2011 19:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:19

In fact leares when you say "So they'll be locked up forever" it sounds as if you are accepting that for sexual criminals the rates of reoffending are terribly high.

is that right?

xstitch · 18/05/2011 19:21

Problem is in this case it was dangerous rubbish rather than just rubbish rubbish. IYSWIM.

I feel I am on a bit of a crusade at the moment but I think I have just reached the level of my tolerance of bowing my head and taking it IYSWIM.

leares · 18/05/2011 19:21

The point I'm making is that you can never be sure that they won't reoffend.

noblegiraffe · 18/05/2011 19:21

SardineQueen, I don't think saying that it can be serious doesn't mean that he can't be referring to underage sex. There are lots of factors, including the relative ages of the victim and rapist and whether grooming or a position of authority were used which could make it more serious even if it was supposedly 'consensual'.

When he categorises rape he says
"No it's not, and if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. That's 'cause she's underage, can't consent. Anybody has sex with a 15-year-old, it's rape. So what you and I are talking about, we're talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to. That is rape"

What you and I are talking about, we're talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to.
He doesn't differentiate between a woman being raped by someone she knows and being raped by a stranger. He puts all women forced to have sex into the category 'what you and I are talking about'. As separate to an underage girl being raped. If he wanted to distinguish stranger rape and acquaintance rape, he'd have done it here.

He had many opportunities to use the word 'stranger' when he was talking about 'serious rape' and he never did. He only ever said 'man'.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:24

If a man has been convicted of rape and there is a chance he will do it again I would rather he were removed from society, thanks all the same.

The risk to women of these men being out circulating in society is simply too high. The amount of men, women and children who could have been spared ordeals if this was enforced is terribly high.

I never understand why at the moment they let people out when everyone knows they are dangerous, sometimes when the person themselves are openly saying that they will reoffend, simply because they have served their time.It makes no sense to me at all.

celadon · 18/05/2011 19:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AyeRobot · 18/05/2011 19:26

noblegiraffe, when he says "No it's not, and if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape.", he is WRONG IN TERMS OF THE LAW.

Whatever I feel about the rest of what he says, I expect the Justice Secretary, someone who was an MP when the Sexual Ooffences Act 2003 came in and a trained lawyer to know that.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:27

noblegiraffe you can think what you like but the press, the news-stations, the opposition, many people listening and clearly people in government did not take it that way.

And for a start "No it's not, and if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. That's 'cause she's underage, can't consent. Anybody has sex with a 15-year-old, it's rape." is not even true. That is not rape. It is categorised sex with a minor.

He hasn't got the first clue what he's talking about.

AyeRobot · 18/05/2011 19:28

Heh to myself @ Ooffences

inappa · 18/05/2011 19:28

sardinequeen- They are released because they have served their time and so are free, the State can't just intern people indefinately.

noblegiraffe · 18/05/2011 19:31

Ayerobot, he was certainly wrong on that point, but that is not why people are demanding his sacking.

It sounded like he was ill-prepared to talk about rape and the law, but I'm not sure that's a reason to demand his resignation. And if knowing off the top of your head what you're talking about at any point related to your position was a job requirement, they'd be hard pressed to appoint any cabinet ministers.

noblegiraffe · 18/05/2011 19:35

SardineQueen, you (and others) taking that way is not the same as him meaning it that way. He said he didn't mean it that way, it can certainly read as if he didn't mean it that way. Therefore bellowing for his head because you think he meant something he says he didn't based on your disputable reading of his comments is a bit excessive.

DharmaLovesGreg · 18/05/2011 19:35

I find it quite disconcerting that later on when talking to Sky News he said "Rape has been singled out as an example mainly to add a bit of sexual excitement to the headlines."

So that was the reasoning behind using rape to promote a change in the legal system because it adds sexual excitement Shock

xstitch · 18/05/2011 19:35

When you know your rapist you have to see them again and have to endure them laughing at you about getting away with it. I have been handed a long sentence, I am not even allowed to move further away for 12 more years. I will still have to live with the fact my rapist is laughing at me, live with the memories etc. It is in effect a long sentence followed by life on parole. I am the victim not the culprit, I would have to be the culprit to have rights. That is the society we live in, that is what our legal system gives us.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:35

inappa they can though, and do.

They can be given indeterminate sentences
Or detained under the mental health act

xstitch · 18/05/2011 19:36

Who said that dharma? Kenneth Clarke.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 19:37

noblegiraffe

"And if knowing off the top of your head what you're talking about at any point related to your position was a job requirement, they'd be hard pressed to appoint any cabinet ministers."

Are you serious?

He used to be a lawyer
He is Justice Secretary
Rape is one of the most serious crimes on the books

Too bloody right he should know the law relating to rape.

xstitch · 18/05/2011 19:39

Er was he not being specifically interviewed about it? It's a little thing called preparation. Wonder what my patients would think if I decided to make it up as I go along. I suspect they may be a little unhappy.