Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

[NotFromConcentrate]

AIBU to think it's time he went?

there should be degrees of rape assuming that the least bad was assumed to still be pretty bad

I think I agree with this.

the criminal act of rape is a clearly defined and very easy to understand

That's true. I guess what I've been trying to get at is that consent is potentially a much more grey area.

As a side thought, perhaps if there were "varying degrees" of rape, maybe manatee would be able to clarify her experience?
Maybe more people would report the "lesser" rape, (without knowing there was no chance of conviction so whats the point) more cases of "lesser" rape would get to court, and more "lesser" rapists would be prosecuted...?

Um, I know that life doesn't mean natural life. It still means that it doesn't attract the discount in the way normal sentences do.

Mrsbethel - that is your opinion but there are many, many reasons why the discount begins at the first hearing. Not every case involves a cold blooded offender with the benefit of a solicitor and a full understanding of what is going on. There are safeguards in place for many good reasons. It doesn't make the courts wrong. No system is perfect, but there are very few random, reasonless pieces of procedure still kicking around.

Linden,

Yes, I guess it would be better. But better does not mean good! If you have 3 scenarios bad/worse and worst, none are good but that does not mean that they are equally bad.

Math,

Ken Clarke at no point suggested that aggravating circumstances should ever be a get out of jail card, whatever their nature. What did he say that would give a man free license to rape (unless you regard 15 months min in jail, probably regularly getting paid back in the old testament way to be trivial)?

I think its fair to say now the police try and treat rape allegations with more consideration than they once did

But it is still an ordeal for the woman to go to court. And most in the date rape incidents probably do not even report it.

Germain Greer did suggest two levels date rape and stranger rape... I dont think it will happen

slightlymad72

Aggravating
1.Offender ejaculated or caused victim to ejaculate
2.Background of intimidation or coercion
3.Use of drugs, alcohol or other substance to facilitate the offence
4.Threats to prevent victim reporting the incident
5.Abduction or detention
6.Offender aware that he is suffering from a sexually transmitted infection
7.Pregnancy or infection results
Mitigating
1.Victim engaged in consensual sexual activity with the offender on the same occasion and immediately before the offence

allsquare Exactly - that's kind of what I'm trying to say. If there were some category of crime along the lines of 'vulnerable woman/ambiguous or nonexistent consent' that carried a lesser penalty than 10-15 years I might well have gone to the police. As it was I just didn't feel it was serious enough, unpleasant though it was, to justify getting the police involved.

larry - why not? As most women are raped by someone close to them that they know (husband, partner or friend) - someone they trust - someone they think would never hurt them - where does this scenario lie? All types of rape damages the victim surely? Why compare?

sorry, can I correct the above 'ambiguous or nonexistent consent' to 'ambiguous or assumed consent'

Linden,

All crimes damage victims, from the trivial to the most repulsive. That is why they are crimes. It is the job of a justice system to compare degrees of hurt and set suitable punishments for them.

What is your view? Every rape to be treated equally, regardless of aggravating or mitigating factors? And, would you apply that to any other crime, or just rape?

Amateurish, I hate your Mitigating no. 1.

So if I engage in sexual activity with a new boyfriend, as a virgin, and he decides to move on to intercourse, and I say ow ow ow it hurts stop stop stop and cry and try to escape but he holds me down and carries on then it's not that bad? I think that's horrible.

That actually happened to me by the way, and my then-boyfriend had no idea that what he did was wrong. I said 'That really hurt' and he said 'It had to happen sometime.'

Surely encouraging offenders to plead guilty rather than having to put the victims and justice system through a full trial is a good thing though and so reduced sentencing is the incentive for them to do this. Otherwise offenders would plead not guilty on the chance they would be acquited by the jury and hasn't this been proposed for all crimes not just rape.

Dont know about you, but I would have been happy for my rapists to just be guaranteed getting a warning for "Sexual activity with ambiguous or assumed consent", rather than the sweet FA that they got as I couldnt bring myself to report them for it to not even go to court...

Amateurish can I ask what a mitigating factor to rape might be?,

"oops sorry I thought the fact she let me buy her a drink meant that she wanted to have sex"

"oops, sorry I thought the fact that he came outside for a cigarette meant that he wanted to have sex"

"oops, sorry I thought that the fact that they were too drunk to know what they were doing meant that we could have sex"

I think people are missing the point that the whole purpose of a formal list of aggravating factors is to allow judges to impose sentences of varying lengths. What more differentiation is needed? Any categorisation of types of rape can only serve to downgrade some. It won't upgrade others.

FAO manatee btw :)

Amateurish see you've already answered - apologies

You can't escape the fact that it is all down to consent, and where there are no signs of violence or witness evidence it's one persons word against another. That is what makes it different from any other crime, and that is why it is impossible to legislate in a manner that is seen as fair.

The only other obvious solution is the administration of truth drugs to both parties for cross examination under the supervision of a panel of judges and medical staff. Yes that was being flippant but what else is there ?

Larry I refer to kungfu - 'Any categorisation of types of rape can only serve to downgrade some. It won't upgrade others.'

the usual defence in date rape is that she consented

And yes - it is a different type of crime.

kungfupannda
I think where it really goes wrong is, as with so many legal oddities, is where the judiciary misinterpret the will of parliament.

Theoretically, the "earliest reasonable opportunity" to admit guilt should in most cases be at the first police interview. That is almost certainly what was intended when the law was drawn up.

But judges don't like implementing the law in the manner intended by the democratically elected representatives of the people.

They almost always interpret "earliest reasonable opportunity" as the first day in court. In very few cases will this genuinely be the "earliest reasonable opportunity". In very many cases it will be the "earliest opportunity having already seen the cast-iron case against them".