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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to tell you that KEN CLARKE is spouting about RAPE today I hope he makes it clear hardly any date rapes get to court.

31 replies

ScousyFogarty · 18/05/2011 10:43

KEN CLARKE the cuddly (allegedly) Minister has chopsen RAPE as todays hot topic

I do hope he makes it clear that hardly any date rape aleegations get to court. And those that do often end in "Not guilty" verdicts.

Why is RAPE the easiest serious crime to get away with? Partly because in date-rape cases it is usually one persons word against another; and juries are told not to convict on that basis.

Top brass legal geezers have been trying to do something about it for years. But they have not come up with an answer. Can you?

OP posts:
Original poster
ScousyFogarty · 18/05/2011 11:00

I went to see a couple of "date rape" trials.

In each case I thought the lady was telling the truth and the man was lying.

Both men were found "Not Guilty" Partly due to the judges summing up

therein lies the problem

OP posts:
NulliusInVerba · 18/05/2011 11:01

Is this the story in the papers regarding halving sentences for rapists who admit guilt?

Its obscene. So now we have to bribe rapists because our own justic system is so utterly shit at convicting and jailing them? Its no coincidence that rape has one of the lowest conviction rates.

Stupid idea anyway - "so mr rapist, we all know you are guilty but we cant proove it. So you can plead guilty and go to jail for 18 months, or plead not guilty and get away with it completely. Your choice!"

NulliusInVerba · 18/05/2011 11:04

Its not just date rape though scousy, all kinds of rape have low conviction rates. Its down to a shit justice system and, unfortunatly, public perception that only a totally innocent damsel in distress, dressed modestly, attacked and beaten by a stranger in an alleyway, who fought back and reported immediatly is "real rape".

Everything else is somehow the womans fault. Thats the problem.

EldritchCleavage · 18/05/2011 11:06

It's as much a fault of our culture as our legal system. It is a cop-out to blame judges for all the low conviction rates. As long as JURIES have the attitudes Nullis refers to, conviction rates will be low.

Original poster
ScousyFogarty · 18/05/2011 11:07

Nullius Yes, but why dont you try and deal with the problem as it has existed for many years; as described by me in my first post.

NO TRIAL, No sentence of any kind. (Cuddly Ken is talking fantasy)

I suppose what hes suggesting is MONEY SAVING just as the Coalitions wretched treatment of the disabled is money saving.

OP posts:
DuelingFanjo · 18/05/2011 11:10

what!?

He thinks rapists should plea-bargain?

KvetaBarry · 18/05/2011 11:10

not sure what can be done, but halving sentences for the very very few rapists who make it to prison? wow, what a deterrant that would be.

there was a very good reason I didn't report my rapist - who would have believed me over my then-boyfriend?! even my own grandmother didn't believe date rape was a real thing until I bleated on about it at such length she agreed to consider it a possibility just to shut me up

Original poster
ScousyFogarty · 18/05/2011 11:11

Eldrich Conviction or sentence is NOT AN ISSUE if hardly any allegations get to court. Punch it into google and you will see the figures are pathetic.
Consequently women wont make complaints and rapists tot up multiple offences

there is no easy answer. Its foxed the legal top brass for years

OP posts:
animula · 18/05/2011 11:12

I think that must be part of the thinking with the reduced sentence for guilty plea. Sadly. That is: It is hard and expensive to get a guilty verdict so, let's try offering Mr Rapist a reduced sentence. He can think about it: "Well, chances are, I'm going to get off ... but maybe I won't. Hmm. Maybe I'll just not take the (relatively low) risk, plead guilty, and get a short sentence."

It is all pretty depressing.

Prolesworth · 18/05/2011 11:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Original poster
ScousyFogarty · 18/05/2011 11:14

Germaine Greer suggested two levels of rape charges. Date and stranger. Wont happen

OP posts:
animula · 18/05/2011 11:14

That is very true about only a small percentage getting as far as court. The CPS can't put forward things unless there's a realistic chance of conviction (?) prosecution (?) (sorry, not a legal bod), can they?

NulliusInVerba · 18/05/2011 11:17

The best answer is to work to change attitudes, although I dont have a magic wand to do that.

For a start, why are rapists allowed to cross examine their victims? Disgusting.

One thing I read really stuck with me, as part of a feminst essay I did a while back I was searching when rape within marriage became illegal.

There was an old article about this that, for some unknown reason, allowed comments. Many, many, where saying that once you are married there is no such thing a rape, its the womans duty etc. But the worst was this -

"There is no such thing as rape, because any woman can run faster with her skirt pulled up than a man with his trousers down".

ellodarlin · 18/05/2011 11:27

Its incredibly difficult because so much hinges on consent. If someone is mugged or beaten or burgled then the assumption is they haven't consented and consent is never used as a defence in those crimes. Obviously people can and do consent to sex. The system needs to understand that if someone says she didn't consent, or only consented through coercion, then she didn't consent. If someone is too drunk or to young to consent, then they didn't consent. If someone is dressed nicely or is out at night them that isn't implied consent. Isolating a woman from her friends, money and clothes until she consents, isn't consent. Having consensual sex with one person doesn't mean you have consented to have sex with his friend(s), nor does consensual sex imply that you consent to sex with that partner on a future occasion of his choosing.
In many cases if the female victim was switched with a man then the allegations would be believed but there seems to be an incomprehension within the system that a woman would not want to have sex with a man who has gone to the same club/been at the same conference/bought her a drink/knows her friends brother. There also seems to be a bit of a 'no harm done' attitude towards women, particularly women who are drunk or asleep, who are raped but not beaten.

crystalglasses · 18/05/2011 11:42

A friend of mine was raped by someone she'd never met while walking home at night. She was drunk and frightened and couldn't fight back and wasn't physically injured but there was plenty of circumstantial evidence. She gave evidence in court but the rapist said she had consented to sex and so was acquitted. The main line put forward by the defence counsel was that she hadn't been drunk. There is now a predator out there who will do it again one day. The Crown Prosecution Service do not prosecute unless there is a very good chance of a guilty verdict so it was the rapist's lucky day. May he rot in hell.

Flisspaps · 18/05/2011 11:49

He made me REALLY angry.

He seemed to be suggesting there was a difference between date rape and "serious, forcible rape".

Rape is rape is rape, attitudes need to change and sentences should be increased, not decreased.

Prolesworth · 18/05/2011 11:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Pootles2010 · 18/05/2011 11:52

Piece about it here. Am at work so can't listen, but reading this, my jaw has actually dropped.

I could cry, i really could.

stickytoffeepud · 18/05/2011 12:03

I think he was separating the kids who have consenting sex aged 15 & 18, against other forms of rape

That aside, I disagree with discounting prison sentences full stop. Add on for poor behaviour, dont discount for good

HerHissyness · 18/05/2011 12:04

Agree with Greer's suggestion of Date and Stranger.

Also agree with twice the sentence for a Not Guilty plea being found Guilty... But that it should be DOUBLED if you are found to be guilty but have allowed it to go to court.

Flisspaps · 18/05/2011 12:08

Listening to PMQs...go on Ed!

Mr Cameron - increasing the number of convictions is no use if rapists are back out on the street within months. Convictions need to increase, but so do sentences.

eastegg · 18/05/2011 12:12

OMG Prolesworth.

'The classic rape, where someone jumps out from behind a bush. Serious, proper rape'.

and the type of rape that hardly ever happens because it is relatively easily solved and prosecuted with forensics and requires a psychopath weirdo. Easy for people like KC to focus on that.

The difficult stuff are the acquiantance rapes where it's all about consent. If they're difficult to prosecute now, it's going to be worse when the cuts across the justice system imposed by KC and his mate Osborne kick in.

eastegg · 18/05/2011 12:24

Just read the piece linked by Pootles and can't believe this:

'We still have far too many defendants who don't plead guilty in the first place'.

That says all you need to know about this justice secretary's approach. 'We haven't got the money or the inclination to prosecute you, despite this country having a justice system to be proud of which we are determined to drag down, so you will have to do our job and plead guilty'.

They don't plead guilty because they are not sufficiently worried about getting convicted to do so. It will always happen, of course, but you can minimise it by having an excellent, well-resourced prosecution service and police force. That's the bit that the government don't want to be bothered with. Oh dear...

crystalglasses · 18/05/2011 13:09

classic rape, where someone jumps out from behind a bush. Serious, proper rape' - this is what happened to my friend and even though there was plenty of forensic evidence, the guy was still acquitted because the jury believed she had consented.

So unless the victim has a witness (which is unlikely) the rapist can get away with pleading consent whatever the circumstances.

InFlames · 18/05/2011 13:17

How much fucking damage has this idiot done today? Totally confirmed the myth that there are 2 'types' of rape - one serious, one not. Great stuff. Back 20 years of not-much-progress.