to worry about my sons education? and if not WWYD?

[KittySpencer]

I'm not sure if this would be better in one of the ed topics, I expect I will be told if so :) but here goes (as briefly as possible):

My DS is naturally very bright however he failed to get into the local selective school by the narrowest margin possible. He was top of his primary class, lots of children 'below' him passed but he didn't, much to everyone's surprise.

The appeals system in our area is nigh on impossible to win, even with support from school (which we didn't have). So DS had to go to local comp. There are no good non-selective schools here - selective get 98% or more A-C at GCSE; non-selective is at best 40%.

DS is now in Yr 8, top set in every subject - though when half the kids in the year can barely write their name, that's no great achievement. His recent scores for effort and attainment are 5's at best. This is top of the school. I queried this as he was getting 6's 2 years ago at primary, and I thought he should be getting higher marks now. The response was a) primary marks are different to secondary (?) and b) he's top of the school - in essence what more do you want?

I worry that DS is getting a substandard education. He does no work at school or at home and has no interest. He bunks off school at every opportunity, or goes in late. The school appears not to care about this, and he still gets what they consider top marks.

I don't think IABU to be concerned over all this, though am prepared to be told I'm wrong :) I'm also not sure what I can or should do next. I wish he could go to a selective school, but I can't see how that could happen. There are no private schools within realistic travelling distance, even if I could afford them. I feel so stuck, and in 3 years, when he gets shit results in his GCSEs, whilst his friends at selective schools get all A*s, it will be too late to do anything - assuming that is there is anything I can do.

Do your selectives have a 13+ exam? or any other method of entry. I would go back and look again at what can be done.

If he's doing no work after school and is off as much as he can be but is still achieving a standard the school feel is satisfactory. Then the school is not pushing him to his full potential.

If he's top of the class where he is and if 40% in that school get at least 5 A-C I don't see what the problem is to be honest. I understand your concerns but think you should be dealing with the facts that he bunks off school, doesn't do any work and is regularly late, preferably in partnership with the school. Is there an active PTA you coud get involved with which will give you the opportunity to make constructive feedback and gently support the school in its educational aims for the benefit of your son.

Good luck OP I appreciate it can be hard.

If he bunks off and does no work at home, how does it matter what school he goes to?

If he's as bright as you say he is, can you not work with him at home? I'm a firm believer in the saying 'you can't stop a child from learning if they really want to.'

If yours doesn't want to, maybe that's what you should be tackling?

So he is still achieving even though he is bunking off? Is there another school you can get him into? Or what about a tutor? Could you pay??

Here goes:

1. Secondary levels ARE different to Primary levels e.g. at Primary handwriting counts, whereas at Secondary you would not receive a level for this. We often get kids coming into Year 7 who apparently gained a level 5 at Primary, but who are definitely not working at that level at Secondary. There is always a ridiculous row with parents.
2. It's all a bit of a fiction anyway. I always advise my staff to give low attainment grades so that students can show progression over the course of a year. If you start off by giving them a level 7, where is there to go? Bring it on OfSTED. Come and get me!
3. This is what's wrong with this country's educational system. Of course your child's school is rubbish if all the top students have been creamed off and sent somewhere else.
4. He kind of is in a selective school, if he is able to be in top sets for everything.

You are definitely not being unreasonable, however. Something is going wrong with your child's education. I would arrange an appointment with his head of year ostensibly to talk about his attitude to school- including the bunking off. See what they can do for you first. If your son is as good as he sounds and has the potential you think he does, they will want to help him. He should maybe look to turn it into something positive and perhaps be head boy/ run the school council?

Scores for effort and attainment, or NC levels?

What concerns me most is his lack of interest, lack of doing homework at home and the bunking off. His intelligence seems there and it does seem as though he's being able to 'wing it' with minimum effort and still get good grades.

YANBU to be concerned. However, I do know of many ex-comp pupils who've achieved great things, and many who've been to top private schools who've achieved very little.

It sounds like he's not being challenged nor is he inspired to strive for better grades on his own... as far as the school is concerned he is probably the least of their worries, though I do feel he's being let down given that his heart isn't in it. Some of that is normal, I excelled at Primary, but at Secondary, life got in the way a little.

Have you discussed things with him? How does he feel and is he happy? Wellbeing is just as important, if not more so, than grades. Is there any way you could provide that extra 'push' via private tutoring? I'm sure its a fine balancing act between encouraging and putting him off by pestering him, and peer pressure will probably play a part. I don't envy you, I have all this to come, but I don't think you are being unreasonable to worry at all...

"I worry that DS is getting a substandard education. He does no work at school or at home and has no interest. He bunks off school at every opportunity, or goes in late. The school appears not to care about this, and he still gets what they consider top marks."

YOU are the one who should be dealing with him doing no work at home or bunking off school or going in late, not necessarily the school.

You get out of your education what you put into it, regardless of where you go to school, IMO. And parental support and encouragement (and yes sometimes pressure) are part and parcel of that.

There is no 13+. I'm not aware of any other way into the selective schools - as I understand it, if you fail at 11, that's it. Unless you do well at GCSE then you might get in for 6th form.

I could (and probably will) pay for a tutor, but what worries me about that is DS will then be above the level the school are teaching at iyswim. I have previously asked the school to set extra work but they say it's not necessary - however I'm sure that DS is already well behind the level of his peers in selective schools, and that gap will only get wider.

I am well aware him not doing homework, lateness etc is awful. But the school really doesn't seem bothered - I know they would be if he was bottom of the school, which seems wrong somehow. I've been trying to force him to do his homework recently - I tell him he won't do well at school if he doesnt. His response is irrespective of doing homework or not he's top of class and teachers say he's doing well, so his view is what's the point? Likewise being late - he says he doesn't miss anything, or can catch up on the first 15 mins he's missed easily.

Kitty perhaps something you need to work on is your DS' maturity. My DCs attend a similar school to yours (around 40% A-C, 4% EBAC). No selective schools where we are, just comprehensives (and poor ones at that).

DD1 (year 10) is top set for everything. The difference I see is that her attitude/effort grade are also straight As. Boys do seem to be immature in the first few years of secondary compared to girls. This is starting to catch up now.

They do seem to get a lot less homework in in the first few years compared to expectation but DD1 reports that the homework has really ramped up now that she is in the GCSE years.

Are there other things you could get your DS into as a steadying and maturing influence? My DS (year 7) is looking to join air cadets in September when he is 13. TBH it doesnt sound as though your DS is going to struggle academically just that he has some growing up to do.

Gnome, thats a fair point re maturity. DS is one of the very youngest in his year (August birthday) and in a lot of ways is also young for his age, if that makes sense. Tonight for ex he cried because he lost a football match on Xbox.

I will give some thought to other stuff he could do out of school - I'm not sure if he would like cadets but something along those lines would probably do him good.

Do you think not getting into the selective school was a big shock to him? Because it does seem as if he has given up a little more dramatically than might be slightly necessary.

Suggestions of out-of-school activities sound good. Also, try to find something he is interested in, to give him a goal to work for. By next year, he will be starting his GCSE work which makes it much easier to make goals and general standards visible to him: he needs to understand that come exams he will not be measured against the (low) standards of his school but against national standards.

KittySpencer Tue 17-May-11 20:33:15
There is no 13+. I'm not aware of any other way into the selective schools - as I understand it, if you fail at 11, that's it. Unless you do well at GCSE then you might get in for 6th form.

there is a 12+ and a 13+~ run by the school, not the borough ~ however the waiting list is of course extremely long - naturally bright children from non selective ares of the country who have moved to selective boroughs.

Children, here, who have passed the 12+ are still waiting for a place in y10 - this is because once a child has won their place by right in the 11+ have parents who tend not to move and disadvantage their child.

I have children in both selective and non selective schools - don't 'diss' top steam secondary moderns .... these are the kids who have a point to prove by virtue of missing by the narrowest of margins. Middle/lower set grammar kids tend to rest on their laurels an know they can scoot through a GCSE with little or no work involved.

As I said - I experience both sides of the coin ....

"There are no good non-selective schools here - selective get 98% or more A-C at GCSE; non-selective is at best 40%. "

Forgive me if this is stating the obvious, but it is hardly surprising that the selective schools are getting 98% A-C if they are taking only the brightest pupils. The non-selective have got to deal with the ability range who are mostly below that, so just because they only get 40% A-C does not necessarily make them any less "good". For all you know the teaching in the non-selective schools could be no better than in your son's school but they get the better grades because of the pupils being mostly bright.

A bright pupil - like your son - could probably do just as well in the non-selective school. If they work hard enough.

And I agree with what others have said about grades at primary being "different". We have heard this from a number of sources, not just DDs school.

Cory, it was a massive shock to him. He expected to pass it easily. He never expected to fail. The fact it was by one mark didn't help. Had he missed it by a mile that might have been easier to deal with.

Yes, being young for the year is IMO a disadvantage. Here are some out of school activities:

• Army, Sea or Air cadets
• St John's Ambulance brigade, Red Cross
• Scouts
• Music/Theatre schools (both my DDs attend a Saturday morning music school including a rock school popular with boys)
• Athletics, rugby, cricket clubs (these all take on older children)
• Martial arts

You might like to know - the primary shcool does all the appeals they consider necessary before you even get the results - so any appeal you do is fruitless.

My (grammar) school sons classmate missed by 2 marks - got in on parental appeal by virtue a sibling was already there. Another friend got her daughter a place (12 marks short) on the grounds she had a heart condition.

My son Y10 - his year group is currently running at 10 places short (natural wastage) and they won't take in any more by virtue that GCSEs are done and dusted and they have moved onto AS now.

So you have to ask yourself - exactly what would my child gain by being slung into a highly academic environment and being roughly 2 years behind.

I work in a secondary modern (selective borough) and the top 5% there will outstrip grammar kids hands down because they have a work ethic and a need to perform.

Sadly - the demise of 'special schools' means there is mainstream education for the less able - this reflects on statistics. Never look at results - look at the CVA tables - that tells you how much a school has brought on pupils ..... grammar schools have dreadful CVAs, usually around 880 (1000 being the starting point) ..... any school with a CVA over 1,000 has worked marvels

I'd add in - kids don't suddenly become illiterate/innumerate/develop aspergers/ADHD/ODD/dyslexia/dyspraxia/etc - they get the pupils that primaries have handed on

Not just a shock to him, I would guess, but to you too? Could the experience have coloured your response to the school? IMO, a school trying to provide a good education to a cohort from which the most able pupils have been creamed off are doing well to get 40% - have you looked at their value added score?Schools in these challenging circumstances have to focus on particular students ie those likely to underachieve at crucial points (eg L5 at KS3, grade C at KS4) because parents and the government look at these scores - regardless of the actual progress the children are making, and judge the schiool on them. 98% (despite creaming off the highest achieving students) well that must be a 'good' school. 40% = no good.

Also - what are his individual teachers saying about his lack of homework, effort etc? It's very hard to believe that level 5 represents the very best score in year 8 when the school are getting 40% A-C. My DD's school, with lower % than that, had students at L6 + 7 in year 8. Do you think your attitude to the school may have been picked up by him so he is feeling a failure and so not trying?

Yes, I probably did expect him to pass too.

As to his current school, I wasn't that impressed with it in the first place but the HM made much in the pre year 7 meeting of how much effort they would put in with children who narrowly missed selection, how they would be set extra work etc which all seemed positive and I was prepared to give it a chance. However none of what he discussed has happened.

The school's percentage A-C is actually just under 40% - 36% in fact. The percentage getting a modern language GCSE was under 20%. And the value added score 990, I've just checked this against the selective schools and their score is similar.

Re teachers, at the last parents evening I was told level 4 was 'average' for his age, and at 5 (actually he was level 6 in one subject, I just checked his report) this was 'well above' both his peers and the national average. They did say he should do his homework, but commented that even without it he was already above what they expected.

Kitty you need to let the selective school go. No amount of wishing is going to change the fact that your son is at the local mediocre comp. Perhaps your DS is picking up also on your negativity about the school and thinks that there isnt much point in bothering.

The school my older 2 are at goes in and out of special measures like it is caught on the door handle. I suspect you need to work more actively with the school. Have you contacted your DS' form tutor to express concern about the bunking off and lack of homework? In my experience this goes first through the form tutor. Despite the problems my DCs' school has I believe my DCs are getting a good education because their attitude is good and their teachers are committed (the school's problem is one of poor management not on the whole poor teachers).

Have you thought about looking into assisted places/scholarships to private schools, perhaps even ones that do weekly boarding? Peer group pressure can be very important to children that age...

I think the responsibility is equally shared between yourself and the school (perhaps more so on you).

I went to a similar school and there are always 1-5 people a year who get straight A's. Even from this age we were different in the sense we would go beyond what was asked.

The biggest thing that can be taught is that he is not competing with his class mates but the best in the country. With the right attitude he can do just as well. For teachers I didn't like, I just taught myself.

Motivation may be harder to come by in poor schools, but can still be got there. You need someone outside of school to inspire him.

FWIW I was also in the air cadets and loved it (even though flying is actually quite boring) :) My school was less than 20% 5A-C's inc. maths and English and I now have a physics PhD having been to a Russel group uni.

It's a good job he didn't go to the selective school, then, you'd both obviously find the workload too much stress.

One recent year our local HS had a headline GCSE pass rate of 36%
From that dire-results year's GCSE leavers, one girl (that I know of, maybe be more like her) was accepted to study Vet. Science at Cambridge Uni. (was in the paper).
Ergo, Headline GCSE passrates are not everything.

I can't comment about whether school could & should do more for him, though. Assigning homework without repercussions if not done sounds a bit pants, though.

Year 8 boys are notoriously difficult to motivate at school. At that age they are still incapable of relating the consequences of what they do/ do n't do to future aspirations.

It takes a very mature lad to stand out from his mates. If the ethos of his mates holds achievement at school in poor regard, he may be reluctant to put in much effort.

What you need is to find what is going to motivate him to get his head down in year 9 and beyond. Otherwise he is just going to coast through the next few years aimlessly and he will underachieve. However if you do indifferently at GCSE, your school life is far from finished. Some students, especially lads only get their act together in year 12 or 13.

When he bunks off school because it's pointless and easy, do you challenge and sanction him? Or do you let him get away with it, because you think it is too, because it's not the hallowed grammar?