to have this book on my desk at work?

[HellAtWork]

Namechanger because I have posted before about hellish situation at work and received good advice but don't want to be outed through too much detail.

Background: From 4 months pregnant my new line manager (LM) (new as result of merger) bullied me at work. At the time I didn't think what she was doing was so bad and I felt I could stick up for myself (albeit with a bit of crying in the toilets). She did things like:

despite receiving notice of when my antenatal appointments were (same time, same day of the week) instituting a new team meeting at that time and then bollocking me for not attending - even though she knew where i was and my assistant (attending) had given my apologies at the meeting;

was difficult about me attending training;

put pressure on me to find my own maternity cover for free (am sole person who does my job in the company) implying I would not have a job to come back to if I didn't; etc.

I guess it can be summarised as a hostile attitude which I felt I just had to suck up and get on with it. Which I did until she told my assistant to put all the stuff from my filing cupboards in the bin and not tell me she had said to do this! I was 8 months pregnant at the time. Assistant then told me and I felt like I couldn't tell anyone in case she started on my assistant while I was away (she did anyway, assistant left as soon as she could after I went on mat leave and I don't blame her!)

Restructuring then takes place while I am on mat leave, and it becomes apparent that bullying LM has ignored express HR Advice & Guidance to offer me a suitable alternative vacancy and so effectively I can either be demoted (30% paycut, loss of professional status) or accept voluntary redundancy. So I realise that when she asked for my stuff to be binned, she already knew about the restructuring (it was 2 weeks before) and had already pre-determined that I would not be offered a suitable alternative vacancy and would be the out of the door somehow.

I am now fighting hard. I raised a formal grievance in October and am being told I will have to have two separate hearings - one under the grievance policy and one under the bullying/harassment policy. I have a lot of anger (not violent/only ever self-directed) and am seeing a Psychiatrist (never thought I would say that...) and have a great (and expensive) solicitor working for me and draft pleadings to lodge.

I think I am particularly aggrieved about her behaviour post-birth, emailing me 5 days after I had given birth to ask that I attend the office within 2 weeks for an end of year performance appraisal and continuing to email even when I said I would get in touch properly once I was able to (was also having to fend off her requests to come and meet me in my home because the hotel she stays in is 8 mins from my house). I feel robbed of a time that should have been nothing but joyful (maybe idyllic but I had an alright birth and have been granted a healthy baby who likes sleeping so I really cannot complain) and have a lot of horrible memories of stressing about work and realising what was happening as events unfolded around me in the first 4 months of my son's life. She eventually backed off when a union person phoned HR to ask her to back off and I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety two months later.

Anyway...for lots of reasons (got to be there to continue fighting, need meaningful work, financial etc.) I have asked to be signed fit to return to work and am returning after 18 months out of the office (mat leave + sick leave) and work are going to make me indirectly report into bullying LM despite psychiatrist, GP and Occ.Health recommendations not to do this. They maintain they have no other option because of the heirarchy of the department. I am scared, but I have to go back. I will be under a lot of stress running a litigation case against work, while being involved with two grievance investigations and hearings. So......

AIBU to keep this book on my desk at work as some form of talisman to ward her off?

Bear in mind that I am not allowed to speak about the grievances to anyone, and any contact I have had with colleagues when I have gone in for meetings has had to be supervised. However, I know others are also being bullied by this woman and there is a terrible culture of fear so I am hoping that others who feel they are being bullied can speak to me even if I can't tell them what is going on with me. In another team within the department, a colleague was forced out because her team members were told they were not allowed to speak to her and another team member received a talking to for having gone for coffee with her. Before all this happened, I didn't really think stuff like this happened in a work environment. I hate how bitter and cynical I now feel!

..... [speechless]

I'm utterly speechless. Not being able to speak to people unsupervised is absolutely barking mad! Record EVERYTHING. Absolutely EVERYTHING - right down to "being supervised whilst going to the toilet".

Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Workplace bullying at it's worst.

Totally shocked and I sympathise having been bullied myself (not at work but I recognise similar things from your latest post). You are absolutely in the right and we are here to support you, whatever you decide.

Wonder if you can find a channel four programme to make a hidden camera programme about work place bullying?

Clearly my power of speech has returned.

HellAtWork, can you try to look at it as I did when I realised that my now X was a basket case, can you be a spectator in all this, laughing and marvelling at the bollocks they are prepared to put you through?

Try to read whatever book you can find to help you see the trigger points, red flags and manipulation techniques, try to do a bully bingo if you can, just so you can keep in your head that this situation is insane.

I fear I would snap at some point and say, If you want me to go THIS badly, then tbh you are going to have to do much better than this, or REALLY make it worth my while to quit.

Oh god I would just love to HerHissyness! I honestly feel that they are going to force me to return in a position where I am indirectly reporting to her (against all medical opinion) so that I will have a nervous breakdown and just run away. The thing is - I can't have a nervous breakdown (I used to have nightmares after birth about being forced to give my son up for adoption so I could return to work and that was pretty near dammit for me) because I have my son to care for. I have no previous medical history of depression or anxiety so I have never known this kind of overwhelming despair before. Certainly makes me realise what a blessed existence I have led so far (and still do when I am seeing the good side of things.)

And I do accept that 'overwhelming despair' is slightly hysterical (and I do try not to lose perspective by being grateful for all that I do have) but when you are having nightmares like that you become a complete insomniac and any sense of perspective flies out the window.

BTW this is all happening in an in-house legal dept of a major FTSE 100 company so we are all lawyers which somehow makes it even worse for me!

For the people who have been bullied and got past it - How? Does this anger subside? Do you become less vengeful over time?

This: "I fear I would snap at some point and say, If you want me to go THIS badly, then tbh you are going to have to do much better than this, or REALLY make it worth my while to quit."

is precisely how I feel now. I am going to have to brazen out their shit when I return (will happen in next 2 weeks maybe sooner) hence asking if I can have the book on my desk! I feel it will send out a message of "Look I know what you're up to and it is insidious but you are on the back foot now" It is confrontational but fronting up is the only way I can see of getting them to either back off or up the ante to the degree that they realise that they have to agree. They won't come to mediation to agree an exit/compromise agreement.

I figured (once I had left the place) that the best revenge was a life well lived. And I made damn sure she knew about how wonderful my life was, by letting mutual work colleagues know, who I knew would gossip to her.

She's still rotting as a single, divorced, miserable old hated bag, who has little respect in the work place from her colleagues, even though she has climbed up the ladder to a very senior level in the last 20 years. She has very few friends and lives for her work. Nobody I have met (including people who don't know I ever worked with her as my line manager in the early 90's) has ever had a good word to say about her. She is reported to constantly complain about her lack of personal life and lack of "decent men who understand rabid bitches career women"...

Me OTOH, I have a wonderful DH, I love my life & the way I live it, I have lots of friends and I consider my self far more successful than her, even though I have 1/8 of her salary and pension prospects having left the civil service 10 years ago and am mostly a SAHwife.

I think no to the book Hell. I know it is hard but honestly I think you have to keep your head down, get on with your work and get the hell out of their each day until your Solicitor has resolved the issue.

I appreciate this could take ages and during that time it will be horrid but basically you do not want to do anything which will give them an excuse, or be able to say anything bad about it. You have to keep as the clean nosed, doing my job well person (even though you do not feel like this on the inside).

I have HATED some places/people I have worked with and regularly wanted to say "oh just fuck off". I would love to have done a bit dramatic "I am leaving now with my plant" in the middle of a working day but now those occasions are years ago I am glad I stuck it out and just left (handed notice in as normal) in due course.

I do not think you should have to hand your notice in, unless you get a new job of course, and I know it is really really hard but just try and keep your head down and wait it out 'til hopefully they get their ass sued and then you can say Fuck Off.

Fingers crossed and keep us posted. Thinking of you.

If keeping the book in your hand bag would help you adopt a certain air of smugness, then go for it. Use every trick you can to stand up to them.

You won't have a nervous breakdown. This is code/old speak for depression. You can't get depression if you are dealing with a REAL situation of oppression. Depression is the perceived feeling of being marginalised, ostracised, mistreated, etc etc etc. If it's real, it's something you can fight, it's tangible!

It's my theory that this is the reason why I didn't get depression living in Egypt with an abusive NowX and among approximately 80 million loons.

You can handle this! detach and look at it from the point of compiling evidence. People like this shouldn't be able to get away with this kind of thing.

You are in the right, cling to that with every fibre of your being.

You poor, poor thing. Firstly keep a detailed diary and discuss everything with your solicitor.

Secondly, can you get past this? Yes, but it will have to be over and then it will gradually shrink from your mind.

I always say that I am not unhappy with my settlement which is not the same as being happy with the situation and outcome forced upon me. It's the best of a bad job.

What you must understand is that you will never win against this person - if you're thinking of winning being teaching her a lesson.

I spoke to three friends about my bully - a GP, a psychiatrist and a police officer. None of them in a professional capacity but all of them come across people like her in their work. They believe that adult bullies have personality disorders. The two doctors plumped for narcissistic personality disorder and psychopathy.

That's not in terms of being an axe murderer but in being unable to empathise with others. That's what makes it so easy to be so cruel. Normal people find that very hard to understand because their consciences tell them that they are wrong to behave like this.

Simply put, your needs don't matter, you don't matter. All that matters are her desires - whether to get on at work, squash rivals or boost her self esteem which will probably be very poor.

Quite often companies do shed people like this - but only after a lot of innocent people suffer and they find it too expensive or embarrassing to keep them.

So whatever happens, even if she is sacked and the company hold a victory parade for you, she will just blot it and you from her mind. She will then move on to make other people's lives a misery. There's nothing you can do about that.

The victory parade scenario is unlikely to happen so you will have to work out what is the most acceptable outcome for you. I guessing that possibly you're looking for some kind of enhanced settlement so you can fuck off and start enjoying life again. From the little that you've said, a settlement sounds possible. I can't say much either because I signed a compromise agreement.

If that's the case you'll have to stick it out. It can't go on forever because now you've put in a grievance it will have to be examined and then go to an appeal if you disagree with the decision. There is a timetable but I can't remember the process so it's best for you to talk to your solicitor or asking on the legal/employment rights board.

If you go down that route it will get worse before it gets better. The company will be on her side.

If you decide that you can't take it any more there's absolutely no shame in leaving. I was in a good position by which I mean no health or relationship troubles.

Another colleague whose father was very ill left and I don't blame her.

You are right to be angry and don't feel ashamed of wanting your revenge. This is awful and it ruins lives.

But by all means don't be afraid to put your case every time they encroach. It made me feel better and from what you said you sound similar.

But no angry outbursts, no lateness, on-the-dot lunchtimes. Just stick with what your solicitor advises. The shittier they are, the fatter your diary is going to get.

Please tell us how you get on.

Just read your post about being a lawyer. Sorry for teaching you how to suck eggs.

The rest of it might help though.

HerHissyness where did you get this incorrect information about depression? Depression is an illness which can affect anyone whatever their situation.

"You won't have a nervous breakdown. This is code/old speak for depression. You can't get depression if you are dealing with a REAL situation of oppression. Depression is the perceived feeling of being marginalised, ostracised, mistreated, etc etc etc."

Really feel for you, having been bullied at work (again by a fellow lawyer).
I really admire you for fighting, to stop it happening again. Otherwise people like that do this again and again - I found it quite galling to discover that many people in the firm knew that my boss had also bullied my predecessors (x 2).
On the other hand, don't feel you have to fight. I decided I just wanted to wash my hands of it all and never think about them again. The feeling of relief was amazing.

Don't display the book, but do find some way of venting. I used to do 'art therapy' when I got home (alcohol fuelled cartoons about my boss). A diary could also work (and provide useful evidence). Also do you have some trusted colleagues for support? I couldn't have coped as long as I did without the confidential unofficial support of some colleagues (some quite senior in the organisation). Lunches out or just a ten minute chat in their office kept me going

What tiredfeet said. I had a playdoh model and would stick pins in it. Also used to draw pictures of her and cut off head with the work guillotine and let it fall into bin. My privet hedge also got scalped. And yes if you can confide in some trusted colleagues, that will help loads.

btw this was another law firm

I am happy to come and link arms with you to form a human car and then move menacingly towards her chanting "reverse reverse" menacingly if that helps.

I think you are being very strong. I was bullied at the firm I trained at by an office manager who should have had no real authority but was allowed to get away with murder -we all thought she must have caught someone with their pants down at some point. She wasn't keen on women, particuarly when they were more highly qualified than she was, and she couldn't bear people who didn't kow-tow to her. She pick, pick, picked at me over several years and did petty things to make life difficult. One on occasion she made up a provable lie about me refusing to do something and I had to frogmarch one of the partners and the woman in question to the diary with me and point out she was talking crap. And this was all going on at a time when there was monitoring going on and I was the solicitor doing the most court hearings and police station attendances - she constantly claimed I wasn't pulling my weight and had to be referred to the records of attendances.

I thought about making a formal complaint (a couple of informal whinges were brushed under the carpet by the partners although they agreed off-record that she was out of order) but to be honest I had had enough of the general ethos of the firm and I found my current firm and decided to go. I did represent a secretary at a disciplinary panel just before I handed my notice in and got a lot of pleasure out of putting the boot in about the manager in question at that hearing - the secretary had another job to go to and I handed my notice in the following week so neither of us had anything to lose.

If you are tough enough to go back and make them deal with this then you deserve to come through this and win. Best of luck.

Wow. Thanks everyone for your experiences and support. And I think the award for most represented job in bullying campaigns goes to...the lawyers. FFS. What does that say about a profession? All of this is seriously making me rethink my career and retraining out of law but I have no idea what or where (or realistically how I can ever maintain my salary outside of law in order for me to work p-t)

OK so you're all helping me make a list of action that I can try and focus on to get me through this:

1. Plan to live life well - QT
2. Don't fight depression, fight them HerH
3. Accept I will not be 'happy' with any settlement but I should aim for not being 'unhappy' Ltd
4. Accept that I will not win by seeing her lose her career or disciplined in any way Ltd (V true - even if I win the grievance(s) I will not know what action is taken to prevent her from doing this again)
5. Consider whether she has a Personality Disorder Ltd (her problem with the pregnancy seemed to focus on the fact that she joined co. as mat. cover for pregnant woman and pregnant woman went on mat leave 7 weeks early "leaving her in the lurch" - I heard that story a fair few times - she still seemed v vividly affronted at this pregnant woman's actions - I have no idea whether it was prem birth/ill health or what but she seems to have taken it very personally)
6. Adopt new mantra: "The shittier they are, the fatter your diary is going to get." copyright Ltd
7. Focus on what it will feel like when all this is over - massive sense of relief TF

Helen so sorry for what you went through at what must have been such a horribly stressful time already. Where do these people get off? I think that's what I would like - to see her leave so you did indeed get the last laugh from my PoV but I think what upsets me the most is that I just can't wish violent thoughts on her even as a cathartic release valve (am a complete wuss - can't even watch horror movies - not remotely anything to do with being nice). It has been suggested to me that she possibly has fertility issues which have led to her behaving this way, which given how happy I am to have my son, and having a close friend going through many miserable miscarriages, I cannot wish on anyone. And then I have to remind myself how she has behaved, and keep fighting! I wish I knew what was in my heart so I could do it! I am constantly in conflict, one day I'm going to settle, walk away, the next morning I'm firing off e-mails, angry again.

TiredFeet Love the idea of an art exhibition filled with the ventings of bullied employees. Have you still got those cartoons?

KFP By the power of The Mumsnet Motorcade, please vanquish her to the nearest layby to squander useful moments of her life until such time as you slowly glide past in first gear brandishing signs. Nice touch with the departing disciplinary representation. See, while I can accept that I may not be the person to achieve her losing her job, I cannot accept that she will not lose her job, and relatively soon. Too much is stacking up against her. So that's why I feel naive (and am questioning my judgement on everything) - because I didn't believe it could get this far or rather, someone could get away with this much.

When you go back to work you need to imagine that you have a camera crew following you around - so you, being filmed, is bright and breezy, smiles and takes things on the chin - you then diarise absolutely everything as previous posters have said

every dealing with woman you smile, you clarify nicely and you move on

Clipart, I am a suicide survivor, I have done depression to the nth degree. I have also lived in utter torture and hell subsequently and yet am STILL here. The remainder of my post explained my theory.

Depression IS a perception of thought, it is not REAL. It is a collection of thoughts that conspire to make you doubt yourself, drain your energy, interfere with your sleep and thought patterns.

When you really ARE being persecuted, watched, followed, criticized and insulted behind your back, (believe me), that is REAL, feeling pissed off, angry, and marginalised is justified. There is meaning to your feelings. Your tears and screams are valid. They do not come out of nowhere.

I am not saying depression doesn't exist, I am saying the thoughts it creates are often without foundation in RL. The illness tricks the brain into feeling these feelings. Therapies like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy are exercises to re-align and re-educate the brain to safe and constructive thought processes.

I am not belittling anyone with depression, I know first hand how powerful it is. I also know some ways to fight it and to protect myself from it. On this thread I said what I said to bolster the OP, and if it helps her fight the good fight against this tyrant, then all well and good, it it doesn't she, and anyone else can discard it.

Favourite cartoon still proudly displayed on my notice board!
Love the playdoh idea too

Op there are nice lawyer jobs out there. In my first job I couldn't have felt more happy and supported. You don't have to change career, just employer.

Good on you OP, you will find your way to deal with it when you are ready.

Violent play not always necessary, I just found it did the job for me ! We had a champagne and tirammisu party at my desk when she went. And a count-down-the-days till she goes chart.

Oh and, er an effigy pinata into which some of the victims us posted slips of paper on which we had written some of her most vicious put downs.

You don't want to know what happened to the pinata...

And to answer your question, yes things can get this far, its more common that you think and the problem does lie with the bully ie it is absolutely not you.

I really feel for you. i went through the same thing with a former Team Leader - he was also completley incompetent at his job, and our manager was atotal wimp who would not stand up to him. I resigned after one too many incidents, wrote a scathing exit interview, two months later our manager left, and TL demoted (had to re apply for his job - didn't get it - ha!). Former TL then nutted out at new TL who promptly took a personal grievance against him - and then HR took a personal grievance him too ! he left soon after to 'persue other career options' hmmmmm. I wish I'd been there to witness him nutting out - was quite entertaining apparently !
So, sorry no help, but can sympathise.

"For the people who have been bullied and got past it - How? Does this anger subside? Do you become less vengeful over time?"

I too was the victim of a 'clean sweep'. When you've put your heart, soul & many unpaid hours into a job, this kind of treatment feels very much like a betrayal.

I had that meeting with a solicitor when I was all fired up to talk about constructive dismissal and it was very disheartening to hear about the realities of trying to get a case to court and the likelihood of winning.

From my experience - I can recommend getting a settlement, leaving...and going to do something that fulfils you and doesn't make you vomit with stress on a daily basis. I am no longer angry, I just have pity for former colleagues and scorn for useless, pathetic individuals that have nothing worthwhile in their lives other than to exercise their 'power' in the workplace.

Believe me, if you've made it look like you could make their lives difficult legally and drop a hint that you would take vol. redundancy - they'll go for it at the drop of a hat.

I wouldn't do it personally - it might make it look like you have been reading up and planning and faking a case against her based on the idea of getting compensation as you didn't intend to go back to work after the birth... if that makes sense? I would worry about inflaming things... of course, you could keep it in a drawer to scare her off if she pokes her nose through your things... ;-)