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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to doubt that Dads can suffer from PND?

51 replies

sparklyjewlz · 10/05/2011 06:50

It doesn't seem like a good reason: see story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-13341083 Sad

OP posts:
HecateQueenOfTheNight · 10/05/2011 07:03

No. Dads cannot suffer from post natal depression. Post natal depression is a condition caused by giving birth.

However, not all depression post-birth is post natal depression. It is perfectly possible to become depressed, through stress, exhaustion, or perhaps feeling like you made a huge mistake etc etc. So you can become depressed following the birth of your child.

Not that that excuses what he did in any way and I certainly do not think that men should be allowed to cry post natal depression.

It is one of life's baffling inconsistencies, nonetheless, that women who kill their children are ill, at the end of their tether and deserving of compassion while men who kill their children are evil bastards. I wonder why that is.

controlpantsandgladrags · 10/05/2011 07:08

Dads can and do get depressed following the birth of their child. What that man did though was calculated and researched for weeks...........not the desperate actions of a man suffering from depression IMO.

poorbuthappy · 10/05/2011 07:09

What Hecate said.

CareyFakes · 10/05/2011 07:15

I think it's a bit of an isult to women who are sufferers of PND considering it is a hormonal effect having given birth etc, which, as far as I'm aware men can't physically do.

Yes, men are affected by the birth in terms of adjustment and so forth, but it's not PND, it's depression.

MoreBeta · 10/05/2011 07:19

Hecate - a good post. I agree with all of it.

Chil1234 · 10/05/2011 07:39

"So you can become depressed following the birth of your child."

As it's not established that all cases of PND stem from an actual hormonal imbalance, any depression that occurs post the birth of a child could be said to be 'post-natal'. In the same way a depression that occurs after a shocking event is classed as 'post traumatic'. If a man becomes clinically and psychotically depressed after the shock of becoming a father he could easily be suffering from either.

WriterofDreams · 10/05/2011 08:13

I don't think we're in a position to judge, frankly. I do find his assertion that he felt "left out" a bit chilling, as it suggests an immature "what about me???" attitude, and the fact that he researched methods does seem quite calculated, but we just don't know if he had depression or not. To say that dads can't get depression following the birth of a child (ie post natal depression) is ridiculous, of course they can. Whether he actually did have it and whether that's what caused him to do such a horrible thing is another issue.

NinkyNonker · 10/05/2011 08:19

Urgh. How very calculated and immature.

Animation · 10/05/2011 08:47

I think we're talking a dual diagnosis - a sociopath who got a bit depressed.

Sociopaths get lonely and depressed too you know.

moanymandy · 10/05/2011 09:03

It is absoutly possible for dads to get post-natal depression! I swear my dp had it!
But of course this on another scale! He is a murdering bastard. Not sure of the medical term for that.....

TheCrackFox · 10/05/2011 09:06

I think men can get depressed after becoming a father but I actually think it is quite insulting to women to call it PND.

Chil1234 · 10/05/2011 09:13

I don't know enough to judge, but if you've got someone that has not shown any previous tendencies towards depression, psychosis or violent behaviour and who then does something as terrible as he is accused of, you do have to question if 'balance of mind' was disturbed. The more common infanticide cases where men are concerned are usually a) revenge on an ex partner, b) hatred for another man's children, c) a general history of violence and aggression towards others. It's more common for women to argue the psychiatric defence, admittedly, but not exclusive. The case of John Hogan, for example.

TidyDancer · 10/05/2011 09:13

While I do believe that father's can get depressed post-birth as a result of the birth or fatherhood, I absolutely do not believe that is what's at play in this situation. The actions of that person were cold and very calculated.

tryingtoleave · 10/05/2011 09:15

I'm fairly sure dh was depressed after the birth of our second child but it wasn't just about dd - it was a mixture of stress at work, massive workload at home, a feeling of being trapped. He got better once he changed jobs and the children started getting easier.

The man in the story sounds like he has way more problems than depression.

BornAgainBitch · 10/05/2011 09:15

My DH stayed home with our DC for the first 8 months and he suffered terrible depression. He had never suffered from it before and hasn't since.

I don't believe that PND always has a biological cause.

ddubsgirl · 10/05/2011 09:17

my dh had depression after we had our twins so it can happen but in that case^ no he planned for a long time and looked into ways how to kill a baby,he is sick yes but cant compare to others dads who have suffered

Birdsgottafly · 10/05/2011 09:22

Hecate-women are not judged under the law any more leniently under the law. In fact research shows that for violent and sexual offences they receive tougher sentences. It is as if they are judged twice for being female and then capable of such a crime. They have higher rates of depression and mental illness and that is what is reflected quite rightly in the reporting.

Birdsgottafly · 10/05/2011 09:24

that should have read 'than men'.

LoonyRationalist · 10/05/2011 09:33

But post-natal depression is hormone induced depression which always has a biological cause. I would say that both men & women can suffer depression following the birth of a child but only women can suffer post-natal depression. Some women may be misdiagnosed with PND when actually suffering from depression after the birth of a child but that does not mean that men can suffer from PND.

I agree with others that there was something seriously wrong here & it is very very sad. I would also say that yes it was pre-meditated but that would concur with, not disprove a diagnosis of depression.

LindenAvery · 10/05/2011 09:47

Looney - not true that it is hormone induced only - there are several theories about PND - and there is not one definition. Save that it is postnatal - after the birth of a child. Lots of people can get confused with the terms baby blues, postnatal depression and PP.

Birdsgottafly · 10/05/2011 10:26

Why not leave it to the experts and those qualified with access to the most upto date research, to decide what comes under the umbrella of PND? You would find that phychiatrists would argue about it so it is pointless for lay people to get to het up over it.

However, we all know that there are different forms of depression so it is now for the courts to decide wether this was a crime commited by a mentally ill person.

Spudulika · 10/05/2011 10:43

" Post natal depression is a condition caused by giving birth."

I'm sure PND isn't unknown among mothers who've adopted babies who had them by surrogacy.

Men can and do get PND.

I find this news story very upsetting and disturbing. Can you imagine how the mother must be feeling to know he was thinking for so long about killing their child? Sad

NulliusInVerba · 10/05/2011 10:48

What I take issue with is the new trend for mental illness to be used as an excuse for terrible crimes. I have heard "Well, they must be mad to do such a thing".

Well if it is the case that to do something bad, you must be mentally ill, then why dont we just shut all the prisons now and let them all out. After all, they cant help it can they?
Attitudes like that do nothing to help the stigma of MH issues. They reinforce the idea that people with these illnesses are dangerous or could "snap" at any time. Its a hard fact to swallow, but some people do terrible evil things, even though they are of sound mind.

BornAgainBitch · 10/05/2011 11:11

My mum developed depression after getting a new dog. Seriously! She had suffered from depression years previously but it had gone away, but after getting her little dog (whom she adores) she said she felt really low. She said (jokingly), "I think I've got post-natal depression, ha, ha!" and we all laughed. However when she described the symptoms, they correlated exactly with something I had read about PND in a parenting book.

It went away by the time the dog was a few months old.

Gentleness · 10/05/2011 11:50

Men can get depressed after (post) the birth (natal) of their child. Silly to claim that depression caused by such a specific event can't be labelled accurately as post-natal. I've never seen a definition of PND that claims it is solely based on hormones. Mine wasn't.

Personally, I think my labour was MUCH harder on dh than on me. We been through 3 miscarriages together, each one had taken 9-11 months to happen in the first place, lots of other stuff and then he had to stand by me as I was induced for 5.5 days, 3 of them with powerful contractions every 10-20mins. Yet I made no progress except get more and more tired and frustrated, then the waters broke, full of meconium, got an epidural that didn't work at all, the anaesthetist resited it and told us that was risky and that he wouldn't do anything else, even if I needed a caesarean (which was looking more likely by then). Then there were fears over the baby's heart-rate decelerating, then pushing could not get over the final hurdle, then had a ventouse delivery, then all the 6 medical people in the room go into focused action as the cord was tightly round our son's neck. For me, I experienced it all and it was hard, but it was my body and I was more instinctively involved. He thought he was going to lose us both. He was absolutely terrified. 2 weeks later it hit him and he was diagnosed with PND.

Calling it PND doesn't make it an excuse for anything.