to doubt that Dads can suffer from PND?

[sparklyjewlz]

It doesn't seem like a good reason: see story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-13341083

of course not, just a daft label like all the others

they might get arsey that they arent getting attention, or that they need to change their ways, but PND no

What animation said ^

men do not get pnd this is not jsut about being tired and run down, feeling overwhelmed with the changes a baby brings, its about hormones too

yes of course men can suffer depression after their child is born (my ex certainly did no one had it as hard as he did) but its not pnd.

be interesting to see what the relationship was like before for him to feel left out

agree with Hecate says tbh. I do think we are especially harsh on men who kill their children and less so on women.

I don't think the amount of premediation in this means that he didn't suffer from PND or any other mental illness. Women with PND can try and find ways of getting rid of their baby or find ways of escaping themselves and plan it for months. Other mental illnesses like schzophrenia can involve a degree of planning before any actions are taken.

I think the key issue here is what this man was like before the baby was born. If the birth of the baby had triggered such a personality change that this was totally out of character then mental illness is likely and line of defence. If he was always controlling, jealous and violent then the mental illness thing won't wash.

It is horrible either way but we are not in a position to judge this case at all.

Who are 'we' because the media certainly is not less harsh on women who kill nor is the justice system.

Dads may suffer some depression which is similar to PND after the stress of a birth in the family /

YABU, if women can get it, so can men

You don't think so? I don't know about that - not in every case.

I suppose predominantly the 'we' applies to MN. There is usually a lynch mob out for the men in cases like this, sometimes regardless of what the mother has done. Obviously nothing justifies killing a child, there are no excuses for it but women might get compassion because they were driven to it. The fathers very rarely get the same response.

YABU. I'm sure some of my post natal depression was due to hormones but a lot of factors such as sleep deprivation and it being completely a life changing event affect the man just as much as the woman. They may also be more likely to have other pressures such as usually being the one to return to work sooner and have to provide financially, the pressure to give his partner, who has recently given birth, support and may feel pushed out by the amount of time their partner has to devote to the new baby.
Haven't read the link but I assume it's a man pretending to have PND? Just because some people make illnesses up it doesn't mean that there aren't some who genuinely suffer.

Bennifer-does that go for periods and the menapause to then?

Niecie-if you read a range of newspapers you will see that women are not given an easier time than men. Also the figures are there to show that on average women are sentenced more harshly than men.

The situation might be different on MN but that is probably because it is a female site for mainly mothers who look at it from their own situation.

Most criminals have psychological disorders. There are a lot of sociopaths about, statistically speaking. Rather than clinically meet the definition of PND, it is more likely that this man's latent tendencies to act on a combination of sociopathy and narcisstic personality disorder were activated by some form of depressive or nervous illness which arose from the combination of circumstances after the birth of his child.

And yes, I agree that women are sentenced more harshly by the courts than men. I don't have the link to any studies and generally, I don't think many studies are done on this. But anyone working in the courts or prison service will tell you that women will be jailed for things that men will get away with fines for multiple times.

Well it has been shown that men do undergo hormonal changes if their partner has a baby (their testosterone levels drop right off). I have no idea why this happens, or if it can cause a depression that could reasonably be termed post-natal but depression is pretty horrible whether you've had a baby or not. I don't see why it should be demeaning to women to describe a man as having post natal depression.

None of the above really explain or excuse the above, tho.

There are Personality Disorders and then there's Mental Illness.

Those who kill generally have a sociopathic/psychopathic personality disorder.

Those with mental illness RARELY kill anyone unless they have the acute psychotic symptoms such as hearing voices or severe delusional thinking.

From what has been reported this guy doesn't appear psychotic to me.

here www.patient.co.uk/health/Depression-(Post-Natal).htm
What causes postnatal depression?
The exact cause is not clear. Common misconceptions are that it is just due to hormone changes after you give birth and that it will go away by itself. Any mother can develop postnatal depression. Some studies suggest that depression after childbirth is no more common than at other times (depression is common). However, it is thought that women are more prone to develop depression just after childbirth.

The main cause seems to be stressful events after childbirth such as feelings of isolation, worry, and responsibility about the new baby, etc. In addition, you may be at greater risk of developing postnatal depression if you have/have had:.

?Mental health problems in the past (including depression, previous postnatal depression, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia).
?Previous treatment by a psychiatrist or mental health team.
?Depression during your pregnancy.
?Postnatal depression that runs in your family.
?Marital or relationship problems.
?No close friends or family around you.
?Money troubles.
?Physical health problems following the birth (such as anaemia, incontinence, etc).
However, in many cases, there is no apparent cause..

--

No it doesn't say men can get it but by this definition there is no reason why men can't. Men can also get Birth Trauma (PTSD following a birth) although I can't see them getting puerperal psychosis.

Try that again!

[[http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Depression-(Post-Natal).htm
From here]]

Birdsgottafly,

I should have made it clearer - given that almost the causes of PND are not entirely understood, but it's not thought to be entirely hormonal, with stress, etc playing a big part, then if having a baby is stressful (etc) for a woman, surely it's stressful (etc) for a man

As any mental health issue is incredibly hard to pinpoint, and many symptoms can overlap certain 'headings' I do understand why some men's depression after the birth of a child can be called PND and also why women who've suffered it are slightly affronted by that.

Depression/mental illness is complex isn't it? If we are all unique then there's as many variations of mental illness (or wellbeing) as there are people on the planet.

Depression may often explain the road the person travels that leads to them committing a crime, and sometimes that person deserves compassion, but it shouldn't excuse the actions completely.

Surely if we knew that PND were purely hormonal, some women might be affronted by men claiming to have PND, but that's not the case, as far as we know

Depression is a horrible thing, even wth out having the hormone imbalance that comes from just giving birth/breast feeding.

But without having the hormonal problem he could have thought rationally enough to have realized that at any time he could just leave as has been done by many fathers and yes some mothers.

I don't belive that PND is an excuse for killing a child though.. I tend to feel quite a bit of sympathy for mothers who kill themselves or themselves and their children though. The ones who kill just the child.. I don't trust their reasons and suspect they are just evil fuckers.

I feel uncomfortable commenting on the case at all because I dont know the full facts and the outcome was so tragic.

However, I would like to comment on the general question about whether men can get a form of 'male PND'. It is is an interesting one and have read studies with findings similar to the one that BarbarianMum wrote about. I also agree with others who say depression is not purely hormonal. I am pretty sure that PND in women is brought about by a combination of factors and so it is likely that male depression after birth is a combinatorial issue too.

From my own experience, I can definitely say I did not suffer 'male PND' but yes like many men I did experence lack of sleep, a massive change in the relationship with my DW, sudden feelings of overwhelming responsibility for my family, guilty feelings after witnessing a difficult birth, lack of anyone to talk to about how I felt. These are typical experiences for men after a baby is born. In general, they are the kinds of factors that are commonly known to trigger clinical depression in anyone and a man who perhaps has an innate psychological vulnerability might well be affected.

Men are known to have a higher rate of certain types of mental illness and suicide than women so perhaps depression in men triggered by by the birth of a baby is an unrecognised problem. Marriage breakup or abandonment after a birth is perhaps a manifestation of that too.

Of course, I recognise women have a huge physical trauma and a range of different psychological pressures to deal with after a birth so am not making any comparison between PND and male depression after a birth.

i think there is far more to this case.he apparently never wanted the baby and had done extensive research into how to kill and conceal the method of killing.

i have worked in the field of mental illness for 12 years and have seen the birth of a child trigger depression in men.sometimes they would have no history of mental illness,but the sudden responsibility and complete life change can be overwhelming.maybe PND is the wrong name for it but i have also seen women suffer similarly.

Birdsgottofly - Obviously I know why MN is more partisan about this but that doesn't mean that men should never be allowed some compassion.

I don't read enough papers to know all their views on the treatment of women. I would more interested in the crime statistics than what the papers say. However, whilst women may get harshers sentences they are less likely to be charged with murder in the first place. More women than men get their charges dropped from murder to manslaughter, presumably for a lot of them because of the diminished responsibility defence which means that understanding the role of mental illness in these crimes very important.

Very few child murders carry a murder charge because of points of law. Men tend to commit murder in a way that is more easily proven, a blow to the head for example. For the equavalent sentance women recieve harsher sentances and lose contact with family members more than men do. Society as a whole, if not the world, judge women who commit crime as it being worse than a if a male commits the crime because men are viewed as being naturally aggressive etc. Women recieve longer sentances for violent crime then men do for murder. However i would like crime to be sentenced on the crime itself not the title that can be given.

If is an ongoing myth that women are treated any better under the law. Posters needed to make it clear they were refering to MN not RL.

I think the two issues are unrelated: my DH suffered from depression and stress briefly after our DD was born. Thankfully it went away without any medical attention and it may or may not have been triggered by sleep deprivation. Whether or not that met the clinical definition of PND I don't really know or care, it was depression which was triggered by the birth of a child and the impact that has on family life, that's good enough for me to call it post-natal depression.

On the other hand what this bloke did sounds calculated and psychopathic, the act of a bitter, resentful man who had the presence of mind to plan the act a long way in advance.