To be disillusioned with my children :(

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

I have 3 children, aged 7, 5 and 3, 2 girls and and a younger boy. At school and nursery, I get reports of them being "lovely" and well-behaved, noone has anything bad to say about them.

At home, however, it is a different matter. They constantly fight, scream, cry, hit, trash each other's toys, trash all my stuff (eg my 5yo drew on the sofa "just because). They whinge constantly, and are always wanting things. Nothing seems to make them happy. I think my main disappointment is that they never seem to be happy, and I don't feel happy either

I think I am reasonably strict, in that there are clear boundaries, and they know what I will not allow, but they take no notice, and often cheerfully disobey me. I don't smack, but I do admit to shouting sometimes. I have made a real effort recently to stop shouting, but if anything their behaviour has gotten worse. I try to pay no attention to their whining and screaming, which is usually over something ridiculously trivial, although to hear them you would think that they had broken limbs apiece, rather than someone wouldn't move from where they wanted to sit etc.

I have tried talking to them, and explaining how sad I feel when they hurt each other and break all my things, but it makes no difference.

I try to take them places and do things with them. Today, for example, I took them to a dog show thing they were keen to go to, with agility dogs, and sheepdog displays. Within minutes they were bored, squabbling and whinging for me to buy them things from stalls- things that have been discarded or lost already. I spend time with them individually at night, reading them stories and chat to them lots. I then took them to play with friends, who they have been badgering me to play with all week. Afterwards I asked them if they had a good time, and they moaned and said no, although they did seem to be having fun at the time.

They know I love them, and take that completely for granted. They seem not to care two hoots if they have upset me, as long as they get what they want. I ask them would they behave this way at school etc and they say no, as they would "get into trouble"! But when they are "in trouble" with me, they don't seem too bothered Why do they not respect me? I find it hard to think of ways to punish them that are meaningful to them. The only thing that has ever upset them is getting their night-time story taken away, but I hate doing that, as I feel it is an important thing for us as a family.

I know people say that "they're just children" and "all children are like that", but I remember being their age, and I would have been really upset if I'd upset my mum, and ashamed. I wouldn't have dreamt of taking her stuff or drawing on furniture at that age. Where am I going wrong? DH says I am not strict enough, but they don't listen to him either! I don't want to be a big bad mum, but I'm not a pushover! I just want to enjoy my children and for them to be happy. Any suggestions welcome, as I feel really quite down about this at the moment.

When you issue threats or punishments, do you follow them through?

Have you watched Supernanny at all? I seem to recall a couple of programs with children like your descriptions. Maybe you could get some ideas from her.

"The only thing that has ever upset them is getting their night-time story taken away, but I hate doing that, as I feel it is an important thing for us as a family."

Presumably they also feel it's an important part of family life, if it bothers them to lose it. If their behaviour makes it necessary to remove it for a night (or whatever), make sure they know it is because their behaviour has made it necessary. That's what consequences are all about. You don't have to enjoy doling out punishments - in fact, it's probably healthier all round if you don't - but sometimes a child's understanding of other people's feelings starts with their own, i.e. "I am hurt and pissed off because mummy has done X [lightbulb moment] OMG this must be what mummy's on about when she says we've made her hurt and upset!"

This probably doesn't make any sense, sorry

gay I always follow through any threats etc- I'm very firm on that, but for that reason I am wary of making threats in the heat of the moment, iyswim?

Jonny- yes, watched supernanny, who always seems to advocate one-on-one time, which I try to do, but not always easy, especially as DH away at times (RN) I've never found the naughty step much cop, and star charts and their ilk have been a disaster here! I do try to reward positive behaviour- eg they tidied their rooms yesterday without huffing, and I said thank you and gave them a small unexpected treat afterwards

aStar- I know you are right, but last time I heard dd1 crying for over an hour at bedtime and it made me feel dreadful. I did go up and talk to her and explained that this was how she had made me feel etc. I use the threat of no story "if you don't stop.." etc, and I know we shouldn't enjoy punishment, but I feel like losing that time with them punishes me too! So what you are saying does make sense

What is your husbands role, apart from a few comments? Does he do 50% of the childcare, (sorry if I missed it). or just let you get on with it while commenting?

Anyway, 3 kids at 7, 5 and 3 are bound to be a handful!! As they are doing great at nursery and school ("well-behaved and lovely"), you sound like you are doing a great job anyway! Hats off to you!

Do you praise the positive enough? I.e. when they are NOT doing the negative behaviour do you notice and offer praise lots and lots? E.G "Bethan you are playing really nicely with Billy, that's really great!" "Billy, you waited really patiently in that queue even though it was difficult to do - well done" etc etc. It really does make a difference with turning behaviour around.

And I know I keep saying it but read this book - "The Incredible Years - A Trouble-Shooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 2 - 8 Years" by Carolyn Webster Stratton. It's a life-saver.
www.amazon.co.uk/Incredible-Years-Carolyn-Webster-Stratton/dp/1892222043/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304875923&sr=8-1

Hats off to you, you sound like an AMAZING mum.

I think, in all honesty, you're probably tired and a bit run down, and that you ought to leave the kids to your husband for a weekend and recharge your batteries with some girlfriends.

My son is only 17 months at the mo, so I don't have much experience, but aren't all kids like this at those ages? Grit your teeth - sounds like you are giving them a good grounding for later life - they'll get through these stages, it'll pass.

It is just a thought but have the DCs got too much stuff too play with, if they have access to everything all the time they won't respect it they will take it for granted. Now is a very good time to take control back OP when they are out sort through toys put some of the favourites aside and utilise them as rewards. You have been very good today would you like the lego out?

I am not saying be cruel or harsh but it is wrong to bring bairns up to feel entitled to all, all of the time. Start playing 'housework' with them putting dirty clothes in the basket, rubbish in the bin find places for their stuff to live for example a drawer for the lasses hairbrushes and bobbles it will save you time on a daily basis. Teach your DCs that they have to work with you to make the home a happy one don't take it all on your shoulders. For your own sake don't become the house slave. Raise you expectations of them and don't take any old buck off them.

You are already a good Mam because your thinking of ways to improve I'm sure it will all turn out well for you and your family chin up and don't let the little buggers grin you down.

I just wondered, because I've used the "It's not the severity, it's the certainty" theory with every kid I know, and it works 100% of the time.

Similar aged children, two DDs and a DS as well - I feel. If your children are 'angels' at school, then you must be doing something right! What has worked for us is;

-Divide them up when possible - your DH takes one, you take the others - this works particularly for the older two girls who seem to need space from each other.
-Lots of activities - hanging around at home is when my children tend to kick off so we do lots outside the house, both paid (swimming, ballet etc) and free (gardening, park etc)
-Positive parenting helped - kids didn't behave that much better but I felt better - avoid 'don't', lots of positive praise, no 'if you do that, I will...'. Stopped me shouting so much and there was less attention-seeking bad behaviour. I foudn ti hard to keep up all that relentless positivity however!

I meant - I feel your pain!

Yes I do mean 'grin' you down

I could have written your post! Mine are twins aged 4.8 and I'm fed up of refereeing the squabbles and being ignored until I raise my voice and/or threaten them! They're angels for everyone else and are to be fair, generally really good kids. They're just going through a phase where they're constantly seeing how far they can push it. At least I hope it's a phase....
I think it's pretty normal and you sound like you're doing a damn fine job to me.

You're going to hate me saying this but I'm going to just throw it into the pot - just as one "maybe" amongst many:

What else is going on in your life apart from the children?

Who else/ what else is giving you validation/making you happy apart from the children?

I think 7, 5, and 3 is not a good age for expecting validation from. Not vocalised anYWAY.

where is the dad in all of this

Sorry. Interrupted there. What I'm picking up is lack of confidence/feelings of happiness/self-worth.

Parenting is hard and there is very little congratulation for your work. Oftentimes, you have to congratulate yourself. There's plenty in your post to congratulate yourself on, as other posters have picked up on, so I'm just wondering what else is going on?

Children very very often do not act as though they respect you. It can be demoralising. The home isn't like a workplace, where people are older and try to respect boundaries/recognise contributions.

Usually, one of the big upsides of parenting is the love you get from children. It sot of compensates for the (sometimes semingly endless) restatement of ground rules and boundaries.

Is there a mismatch between the way you were brought up and the way you are attempting to bring up your children?

What do you think you "need" as a mother? Is it realistic to ask for it from your children?

Is there a mismatch between you dh's approach and your own?

How are you and your dh getting along?

How do the adults in your life validate you?

Thanks guys- the fact that other people have always thought my children lovely has been the thing that keeps me sane!

DH does do his bit, but the problem is he is in the Navy, and is/ has been away for stretches. This means the dc look to me all the time- even if DH says "no" they will look to me for confirmation, despite the fact I always back him up, even if it wasn't the way I would have handled it

I do always try to make a point of saying "it's lovely to see you guys playing so nicely together- well done!" on the rare occasion when they are!

beesimo I think you may well be right there, re too much stuff. One of my friends recently went on holiday with her 2 dc, and they couldn't bring much at all. She said that they played so much better with no "stuff" to fight over! Mine definitely have waaay too much- will look at clearing out lots! problem is, I have tried that before, and they just pile up chairs to climb up to the "restricted" item (play-doh, in this case!) despite knowing it is off-limits. So I'll need to actually remove stuff to the garage, but I think they need to learn the value of "stuff". Similarly, I am thinking I should be tougher re buying them "stuff"- they love to go to the pound shop with their tooth-fairy money and buy tat, but I'm wondering if I should only let them have stuff at Christmas and Birthdays, make them appreciate it better?? What do you think??

I think when they play up when you're out you remove them straight away. Going to the dog show was a treat and if they misbehave they don't deserve the treat.

For the 7 and 5 year old I wouldn't always sort out their disagreements (I don't know if you already do this!) For trivial things tell them they need to sort it out between themselves. This stops them having someone (being you) to moan to. If they continue to argue tell them to go into separate rooms. Again it stops you getting involved in things, and one child getting the satisfaction of seeing their sibling getting into trouble; which is what they want!

I would focus on stopping them hitting each other and the trashing of stuff. It's disrepectful and it's simply not allowed. I wouldn't give them any warnings if they hit each other. I would move them straight onto a punishment like removing their favourite toy or sending them to their room. My DC started to spit at one point. I told him straight that it wasn't allowed. When he did spit he was faced with a consequence straight away and it soon stopped.

Good luck. I hope things get better soon for you.

interesting points, animula!

I've just recently (last week!) opened the doors of my new business, so I am probably a bit more anxious and stressed than usual. On top of that, dad, Dh and I have spent the last 5 weeks refurbishing the place, and I have felt guilty about the dc not getting as much time as before. The whole thing is filling me with guilt- I've gone from being a very p/t worker to full time (and then some) and I am worried about how it will affect the kids. In some ways, I tell myself that it will be good for them to not have me at their beck and call, but the guilt is always there! the business is right across the road from their school, and I have a huge downstairs area where they have toys, TV etc, so they come after school, but they have trashed that too (I have made them tidy up, several times) and at times create havoc, which won't be good when/ if I get any clients! So it IS a period of readjustment and stress and guilt (and worry!) to make things worse, DH left for sea again Monday, and my dad, who is a great support went on holiday!!

I know my children love me, but I sometimes feel they love me more what they can get from me, rather than just me! I was brought up with my mum as the "strict" one, and my dad as the "fun" parent, but who, if you pushed him, could be worse than mum! I had a great childhood, and loved and respected both my parents (mum now dead, but still have a great relationship with my dad) I want my children to feel the way I felt about my mum, but they seem to respect me less than I did her. only thing we have done differently is that I don't smack, although my mum smacked me rarely.

DH is less tolerant than me- he can't see why I should acquiesce to dd1's "need" to have her room door left open a bit at night, he thinks it is "silly", but I remember being a child in the dark at night, and feel it doesn't hurt anyone to have it open, little things like that. We generally back each other up in front of the children, then discuss it later, there aren';t really any major differences. I think he finds it frustrating that the dc, especially dd1, always look to me, never him, for direction, but I think it is a feature of his being away a lot. When he is home, he is great at getting them out to the park/ for "adventures", and I encourage him to get as much time with them as possible. Dh and I argue on occasion, but are still very close and have a very secure relationship.

What do I "need" as a mother? That is interesting. I guess all I need is for my children to be happy and healthy. I think it is the fact that they never seem happy that depresses me. I wouldn't mind a bit of respect too, though!

Both Dh and my dad are 100% behind me in this new business venture, and I feel they have a lot of faith in me (faith I don't necessarily have in myself atm!) My dad, of course, says the kids are wonderful (slightly biased!) DH is not a gushy bloke, but he shows he loves me in very practical ways (nothing says I love you like coming home from work and hoovering/ cleaning/ cooking without being asked!) Not sure what you mean by "validate"? I don't get praised to the high heavens, but I know they are quietly proud of me, is that the kind of thing?

Woops- sorry about the wonky bolding!!

no advice, just wanted to say you are not alone, my kids are a lot like yours in some ways. Similar ages, and although they very rarely fight among themselves, they also seem to take everything in life for granted and my middle child particularly never seems happy, which upsets me most. He is given playdates, trips out several times a week, park after school, all sorts of fun and treats, but will usually act hard done by and whine a lot. None of my kids seem to have any idea how to play imaginative games like I used to as a kid, they cry and act like it is a punishment to be sent to their room full of toys, because they would rather watch tv or play computer games. It is hard to constantly feel that you are giving them everything you can and more, but that they feel it is not enough somehow.

I am about to start the one on one time with the kids to help with the issues they have. I took my daughter out and we got her toe nails and finger nails painted at a cheapie salon, which she loved. I need to take time out with just my middle child as he particularly feels left out I think. The toddler gets a lot of attention as he has me when they are at school so he isn't showing any issues yet.

Do they act up for your husband too? Mine see my husband as a soft touch and it often leads to me having to play the bad guy.I see them blatantly disregard rules we have made because the punishments just don't bother them, and it makes me so tempted to try my parents methods... we were so scared of my Step-Father we would never dream of acting the way my kids do sometimes. Why is it so hard to have a civilised family life without resorting to threats and violence?

The thing about not doing the bedtime story . . . I have heard that it helps, instead of saying "as a punishment you are not having the story." you say "because you didn't help tidy up/drew on the sofa, Mummy doesn't have time to read you a story because I have got to tidy up/clean the sofa." That way they feel less punished but also see the way in which their behaviour has made it happen.

Sympathy BTW. I have three DCs, adored by their teachers, but the eldest two are getting so bloody grasping it drives me round the bend.

I think I meant a spectrum of things by "validate" - from praising to just "seeing".

sorry - have to post and run.

(to add to previous post) DS1 had his 10th birthday party, expensive treat, friends back to ours to play, lots of great presents from friends, loads of fun, wonderful time had by all . . . later that day he declared it the "worst day of his life." Why? Because we'd said that after all that running about on such a hot day he had to have a shower.

flyingspaghettimonster- you echo my thoughts exactly! I try all the time to encourage my kids to play the kind of imaginative games we did, and encourage them to play without needing me to be there to organise entertainment all the time!

"It is hard to constantly feel that you are giving them everything you can and more, but that they feel it is not enough somehow." That is exactly how I feel.