to struggle to understand why SAT's are such a bloody big deal?

[BloodySATStakingovertheworld]

Have namechanged.

My dd is part of a sports team. They have amazingly qualified to represent their school in a National Final of a competition.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the competition has clashed with the children starting their SAT's and the school and most of the other parents aren't interested in the slightest in the competition - they're only interested in the SAT's and how the children should be focussed on them.

The headteacher even picked the children out in assembly and whilst they were waiting to be told 'congratulations' for qualifying or 'good luck' for the final, the bloody headteacher said to make sure they take their SAT books to the comp so that they can schedule in plenty of revision and whatever happens at the comp they're to make sure they have an early night ready for the SAT's next morning No good luck, kiss my arse or anything!

Some of the parents are refusing to bring their children to the competition until just before they're due compete (so no preparation time) because they want them to do more SAT's revision first. I think this is sooo unfair to the rest of the team. The preparation time is essential to the comp and it's really letting their team-mates down.

I'm so cross at the school (and the other parents!).

Yes, I know SAT's are important to the school, but they're not the be-all and end-all! These children are representing their school at a National Fucking Competition and haven't even been told GOOD LUCK!!

I'm stunned, I really am.

Dd has worked really hard in school btw and has done extra revision classes as well as lots of extra revision throughout the Easter Hols. But she's worked really hard with her team-mates too! ...and surely that's just as important?

AIBU? Because I'm mightily fucking pissed off on dd's behalf

Even no idea but the SATs take the whole week here .

Fabby that is not always correct. The high schools here dont use sat results to group children. They know that teachers can tailor months of work specifically to parsing the tests so dont feel it is a true representation of a childs abilities. They do a cognative learning evaluation when they start.

YANBU I'm dreading all this shit when my DC get to this age.

I did my SATs in 1997 and there was no mention of revision then. They aren't that kind of test though are they? They're not to test the children individually but the teachers and the school they attend. The children shouldn't be put under all this bullshit pressure, they shouldn't have to be anyway, but more so it has no effect on their future at all. These results don't benefit them personally at all, they're not a qualification like a GCSE or whatever.

"Secondary schools CAT test almost immediately and barely give them a second glance. "
Thats not ture, DCs school use SATs (raw scores) and Cats.
And we had the same Madhatterhouse. DS is very intelligent and scored highly with CATS but is dyslexic and his SATs reflected this, so they had the whole picture and he was put in a lower class for english and higher for science etc

SATs are good practise for secondary, where they will be tested on an almost weekly basis, trhey are 11 a little bit of pressure does them no harm.

Yes, saffy85, they're meant to be to 'test' the school and the 'added value' the education has provided.

In itself, this is a ridiculous premise in areas where there is high geographical mobility (if a pupil has been in a school for two terms before sitting a SAT, it's ridiculous to pretend that the mark is some sort of measure of what that particular school has taught them over the last 3/7 years).

Although, as other people have said, as long as this information is in the public domain with very little explanation as to what the figures actually mean, schools will be under pressure to get as many kids to at least 'expected' levels by such and such a date.

My kids are still pre-school, so perhaps anxiety about exactly what mark they get is still ahead of me, but I truly don't understand the parental obsession with % who get level 4 or 5 at KS2. I can see why this is an issue for schools with League Tables, but do people seriously judge a school on the fact that x% of random strangers' kids got a particular result rather than thinking what will best suit their dc (from the limited range on offer usually?).

I also don't understand how some parents seem to know what levels other children got/'should' have achieved.

Maybe publishing the range of results for each school would give a different perspective? In schools where there is a low average but a few kids who have done very well, this would better reflect what happens there.

I'm happy to be corrected btw, as my kids are pre-school at the moment, so I've yet to fully understand the system.

This is interesting. I'm quite narked with DD's teacher, as he's told her that how she does in her Yr6 SATs will affect her grouping at Secondary, and she's now stressing out about it all. She is bright and should do well, but sometimes she spends too long on questions and gets a lower mark than the school expects.

You may feel differently Rosebud when your children are at school and taking SATS - you will want them to do well, of course, it is only natural. And I think they DO matter - if only to the kids. They are old enough to know what mark they have got, and will compare with others in their class. therefoe they want to do well. But yes,it does seem young to have these pressures, but that is life really, isn't it?

BUT, there must be a way for the school to do this competition and SATS, and encourage and support both as being important in different ways. SATS will always come first for school though because of how that makes them look.

Best of luck to your daughter OP though - very exciting for her!

I'm secondary, and teach some English. Most secondary teachers hate SATS results. They don't reflect the ability, the reflect 6 months plus of preparation. So when they don't make remarkable progress or worse go down a sub-level it is our fault.

They give no reflection of true creativity.

We don't group in year 7 in any subject.

When working as a supply teacher, at a local comprehensive school, I was asked to help invigilate the year 7 CAT tests. It was a revelation. It was a very hot day in early September yet all the windows and doors were shut in the school hall. It was like a sweat box.

I was told not to help any students and there were a large number of year 7s with questions. (This was in marked contrast to other times, when I invigilated in this school, where we were rushed off our feet 'helping' students in exams.)

I stood next to the head of year 7 whilst we surveyed the forest of hands asking for help in the sweaty room. 'We always do this' she explained to me,' we get really low scores. Looks great when it comes to the value added'.

Our education system is rotten to the core at the moment.

I never said that SATS don't matter or they're too young for such pressures.

My particular s are for the way they're supposedly used to demonstrate something about the school that's actually not true and the emphasis put on % achieving certain levels rather than the range within a school.

I don't have anything against external, national tests per se, though find the whole revision regimes for the school's benefit and pretending they measure something that they don't really unpleasant.

I've also heard from parents in local, high achieving schools about how their kdis have been allowed to coast for a few years then have extra help given just before the SATS to 'get them up' to a certain level. Also about out and out cheating ie TA sitting on table with kids and telling them what answer to put during the tests. Dunno if they've reported it before anyone asks.

"We don't group in year 7 in any subject."

DC's school (normal but lovely comp) set from day 1 using CATS (taken in July on school visit) and SATs as well info from year 6 teacher. It's one of the most successful schools locally both academically and pastorally.

I've also been told the sort of things that Rennie says ie primary schools score their reception kids very low so that their KS1 results look like lots of value has been added.

And yes, silver, I might want my kids to do well but what if they don't? My neighbour's ds (one of youngest in the year) didn't do that well in his KS1 SATS, but his learning really took off once he hit 7 years. Fortunately for him, he goes to a school and has a parent that didn't see him as an annoyance for their figures or 'behind' and his confidence is still very robust.

My ds is taking SATS this year, my dd took them three years ago, and I still think their importance is wildly exaggerated. Even if secondaries do use them for streaming, you can always work your way up the streams. But the damage done to my ds when he is made to feel he has blown his chances forever if he does badly in the SATS (health problems atm) are not so easily undone.

EvenLessNarkyPuffin Wed 04-May-11 00:57:28
"Out of interest, what would happen to the system if enough people kept their children off school 'sick' on SATS day?"

I can tell you that. Dd and her best friend were both off with suspected glandular fever: dd also had a flare up of her joint condition which meant she could not sit up in bed or hold a pen. The school sent a TA round to take their SATS down to dictation. I am still narked about that several years later. I work at a university, and there's no way I'd encourage a student sit an exam if they were that ill.

It sounds as though there is a wide range of attitudes from schools towards the SATS, some sound totally ott IMO. My son has done a little SAT related homework but nothing much.Our secondary does CATS in the first week and uses these and SATS and y6 info to set for maths, english, science and languages.

I have noticed, however, that some of the questions and supposed correct answers are very literal and do not seem to make room for creativity or independent thinking. You get marks for showing working which does not work well for kids who have a feel for numbers and calculate in atypical untaught ways.

YANBU.

THe Govenrment(s) have made Y6 SATs into a circus, with some children "acheiving" inflated results as a result of the league tables. Some sec schools sue this information (at least in part) to stream the Y7's. It then becomes starkly obvious which children had "inflated" results as they can't keep up with the rest of the stream.

You are quite right - she has had enough preparation, now she should enjoy the competition - fantastic that the team got through! So sad that the HT didn't seem to acknowledge that

The DDs secondary school pretty much ignores the SATS results and groups according to their own internal assessments at the start of Y7. DD3 didn't do KS1 SATS before starting at junior school and her teacher grouped her based on how DD2 had done in her KS2 SATS the previous summer . She was pretty quickly reassigned to where she needed to be once he realised how daft he'd been-- she'd been there a couple of weeks.

"you get marks for showing working which does not work well for kids who have a feel for numbers and calculate in atypical untaught ways."

It was the same in the days of o'levels. Having the correct answer was only a small percentage of the of the overall marks. This is because if you make a small mistake at the beginning which could lead to getting the overall answer wrong and you are still rewarded for the correct method, because you know what you are doing IYSWIM.

I hate them. My dd is si stressed out. The school are placing such a high importance on them.
Now, they are sort of used as a marker for streaming in high school. But within a few weeks of being in high school they are given more subtle tests & are moved sets accordingly.
I've told my dd to relax & just do the best she can.
There's a new head at my dd's school & I think he's worried & he's passed that onto the children.

SATS are just one of those tests that are made to make the school look good if the pupils achieve good results. It is not like GCSEs or A levels. True, tests every now and then may help some pupils but at the same time they get enough 'smaller' tests from their teachers as it is.

In the end I felt when I went to secondary school that the school itself couldn't care less about my well-being and only about it's image.

They're NOT important, and therefore DD should go to the Athletics and have a good time and not take her books. Perhaps she should be off with a sports-related injury the following day(s).

At the recent parents evening I tried hard to talk about ds' physical problems and how he will cope at secondary, but the teacher took everything I said and turned it into how he will cope in his SATS. Yet when challenged on it, she was most definite that "of course we don't teach for the SATS". Oh yeah - so why are you mentioning the SATS at the end of every sentence, then?

Agree with the comment that most teachers hate Sats. It's the reason that I no longer teach year 6, even thigh they are my favourite age group. The pressure from Ofsted, lea, head, leadership team was ridiculous. I know our local secondary re- tests, in fact the year 7 leader told me, a couple of years ago, that when they hd no Sats results one year because of a technical hitch, they grouped the children by the y 6 teacher assessments (based on our knowledge of the children's work over the year) and by the end of the first term, they only had to shuffle a couple of children who were in the wrong group.
Unfortunately it's not just about more money, the Lea can close down the school eventually. My argument with management was that what we were being asked to teach was mind numbingly boring, for us and the kids.also, that we are doing them no favours in coaching them to inflated grades, as they will suffer later when they are struggling in the wrong groups.

Take the pressure off at home and tell your dd to go for it!

Very likely that most teachers hate SATS, but the teachers and headteachers we've had have still been prepared to tell the children that this is an exam that is vital to their future.