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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to stay away from PILs and keep LO away too

108 replies

takethisonehereforastart · 03/05/2011 17:32

This is a long one. For the past two years I have not been on good terms with my MiL and lately that has progressed to not being on good terms with FiL and one BiL as well. Since just before Christmas I have not seen them personally, which has meant they have not seen LO (just turned 2).

They have always been controlling, demanding and hard work. DH is the youngest of four and they grew up being told that if they ever upset their mother then they would be responsible for her mental breakdown. As the youngest (his siblings are 10, 8 and 6 years older than him), DH was at home with them alone when the siblings moved out (all at 16/17 years of age) so he bore the brunt of her smothering and guilt trips and as a now 30 year old he still reverts to little boy status in the company of his parents and is scared to upset them in any way.

The official story is that MiL is depressed but she has no medication or therapy for this and diagnosed herself. I have always found her to be hard work but I am the sort of person who tries to accommodate everyone and I felt sorry for her. For the first six years of our marriage I worked hard to keep MiL happy but in 2007 I lost our first baby (stillbirth, completely unexpected and devestating to us) and her behaviour took a very nasty turn. Eleven months later, in December 2007, I lost our second child (prematurity) and again was devestated, this time also seriously ill myself from an infection which almost killed me. Again her treatment of me deteriorated and still I tried hard with the relationship.

The recent breakdown in our relationship came just weeks after our LO born, when her latest piece of nastiness was the final straw.

So you get the idea of how she has been throughout our marriage I will list the things I can remember, as it shows how her treatment of me/us has always been strange and why I finally felt pushed too far. Some of this is down to FiL too he supports everything she says and does.

Pretended to forget my name right up to our wedding day. We met and married within just seven months so she claimed it was because she didn't know me very well. We saw her every weekend before the wedding because DH would travel from his base to see me/them and stayed at their house a lot.

Telling people at our engagement party that DH almost married someone else but decided to keep her as a one night stand when he found out she had children. He didn't actually know this woman, she was their friends daughter but he hadn't even met her. She saw his picture in his uniform and said she fancied him.

Told everyone that we had made a mistake about the date of our own wedding and brought it forward by one day. I had to contact everyone again to set them right.

She opened our gifts and cards at our wedding and took money and vouchers from them, "to keep them safe."

Told everyone I was pregnant but keeping it quiet until after the wedding. I wasn't.

Told everyone we had basically slapped her in the face by not cutting the wedding cake when she thought we should, despite her not saying anything to us about it.

Insisted on driving us to the airport for our honeymoon and then when we got there was bitching at us for taking up her time, then charging us petrol money. My dad was going to take us for free until she made her fuss.

Bringing a big knife with her for her first visit to our new house.

Coming to visit on a whim but not even letting us know they were on the way, never mind asking if they could come. Frequently. Saying they were only staying a night and then staying a week. Borrowing money because they couldn't afford the petrol to go home and would have to stay. Going home after a week and then phoning up within half an hour of getting there to say they were on the way back because they had argued with BiL and "needed a break."

Spreading rumours that my DH had cancer when he was in hospital having an infected cyst removed. Throwing a tantrum and calling me a bitch for not telling them their son was dying. Turning up to visit on the day he came home so we had to fuss over them instead of DH getting some rest and me fussing over him.

Phoning when we asked them not to. DH is in the forces and was away for six months just after we got married. We wanted a couple of days alone in peace when he came home and they called us fifteen times in one day. Every day, demanding to visit.

Calling me a slapper. Numerous abusive insults, casual nasty remarks. Snooping through personal letters and property when staying with us.

Telling strangers about my medical history (I had been treated as a young teen for epilepsy) and she was asking strangers if that meant I couldn't have children (non-existant baby not materialising after the wedding made them wonder.)

Ruining every Christmas and New Year with demands that we see her every day we were visiting for at least four hours at a time (both families live in the same town but mine had a bedroom for us and we had to sleep on the floor PILS). Crying if we didn't see her every day. Made threats. Turned up at my parents house shouting abuse. Tried to run DH down in their car. Lying about us to the rest of the family. We did try to see them as much as possible but also wanted to visit other people and have some time alone too. My parents worked all through Christmas so it's not like we saw them more.

Treating us like their personal bank, borrowing money but not paying it back.

Lying to us about our SIL (her other DIL) on a number of occasions and caused bad feeling between DH and his brother because DH believed the lies and thought badly of SIL. BiL set us straight on what had happened and then DH was embarrassed. No idea why they lied or what they thought they would gain from it.

Expecting us to pay off BiLs drug dealer (BiL is an alcoholic and a drug user). Expecting us to have BiL hide at our house when the wrong people were after him. Expecting us to let BiL ring up and abuse us and not mind. Wanted us to lend BiL money he doesn't pay back. Invited Bil and his equally alcoholic drug using girlfriend to LO's first birthday party and wondered why we objected to them being drunk and smoking cannabis in our front garden.

Cut the cake at LO's birthday party and ate it before we had lit the candle and sung to him. He didn't care but we did (having waited so long to have a child and celebrate a birthday after our losses - maybe PFB of us but I think we were allowed for one day on his first birthday in the circumstances).

There's a lot more but this is already very long and this is the worst.

Three days after our son was stillborn my MiL asked me if it still hurts to give birth if the baby is already dead. She argued about the time our son was born and demanded to know if we were going to try again.

Two days later she was ranting to us about SiL's (DH's sister) mortgage and how unhappy they were that she was financially struggling. Didn't mention our son or ask how we were. Stole the information for the bereavement midwife and rang her to ask how long we might be feeling sorry for ourselves and then spending an hour talking about how her mother had died the year before and how she coped with that (she was in a terrible state and the family rallied around a lot) so we should cope with this.

Rang us the day before our sons funeral and told DH off for sounding miserable on the phone.

Caused a fuss on Mothers Day and Fathers Day that year because we didn't send them cards. My parents understood why we ignored the day.

Declared themselves bankrupt then took offence at DH saying they perhaps should give up the credit cards. We bailled them out the first time by buying their house, which meant they could pay off £77,000 in debts but the second time they were £17,000 in debt and happy about being bankrupt. Then claimed that they didn't feel they were made welcome in our house because they still looked at it as being theirs and moaned that when we redecorated it made them feel unwanted.

I lost our daughter. They told everyone about a totally made up medical condition they thought I had.

They told everyone I had a late termination because of this made up condition, even though the reason our daughter was premature was because a lorry rammed into the back of my car at a red light and I went into premature labour and picked up an infection in my placenta.

Telling people my former treatment for epilepsy was to blame for the babies dying.

Then they kept ringing to tell me about cases in the news of child cruelty and the debate about termination limits, even though I found it all very upsetting.

They rang me six weeks after my daugher was born, which also happened to be our stillborn son's first birthday, to tell me how excited they were that SIL was having a c-section the next day and they would have their first granddaughter after three grandsons. Actually my daugher was their first granddaughter and our stillborn son was their fourth grandson.

When I reminded them it was his birthday MiL said "I forgot about that" and then proceeded to tell me why our children don't count as real grandchildren in the same way.

Telling me it was okay to put a photo of my daughter up because she "doesn't look...well, she is still family I suppose. I know she was going to say something nasty. I have a feeling it was "she doesn't look dead."

Looking at my daughters photo and asking if she was born with all of her face. Of course she was, you can see her whole face in the photo for a start. It was actually at this point that I cut contact with them because they started to spread more lies than ever about me and complain about me to DH. They felt unwelcome in our house. They couldn't understand why what they had said might upset me. Then they denied ever saying it even though DH was there for a lot of it.

Disowned us both between christmas and new year, telling DH that he was a tiny part of their lives that was over now, that we were users who took them for mugs, that we thought we were better than them and that they were sick of us and finished with us both.

Lied about BiL having a rare blood disease but refusing to say what it was, when in reality he had taken an amphetamine overdose. They made us think DH and LO were at risk from this blood disorder, which they kept saying might kill BiL and we even wondered if this was why our stillborn son died. DH's cousin also lost a child to stillbirth at the same time our LO was born so it made it seem as though it could be due to something that runs in the family. We were worried for over a week before SiL told us the truth.

Lying about me to family members, threatening me, stalking me, parking outside the house to watch me, kerb crawling after me as I walked home with LO, writing to me to harrass me, making phone calls up to 20 times a day, picking LO up by his neck, keeping some personal things DH had stored at their house against my wishes, refusing to give those things back unless I did as I was told, stealing some of the things that were stored there. Called me a bitch. Wished DH had never met me and that he would leave me for someone else.

They sent a text to DH after that, telling him that I had written to them to accuse them of things (not true, I returned the letter they sent to me with a note asking them to stop harrassing me) and that I had just turned up to take the stuff they had stored. It was full of lies, half truths and was only sent in spite. He was away at the time on an exercise that could have changed his career if he had failed. They just wanted to tell him their lies before I could tell him the truth.

BiL then sent DH a message that disowned him as a brother, called me a "f*ing evil mad bitch" and said I have lied about everything (certainly all the things I've told you here.

By the time they were finished with that most recent thing, in March this year I was diagnosed as having panic attacks and mild, grief related depression and anaemia.

And yet now they think a text to DH to say they don't hold any of this against me is enough to have us all playing happy families again.

DH has been good to a point and has told them to leave me alone, but he still visits them. That's fine, but he wants to take LO and I don't want him to go.

Partly because of the neck lifting incident, coupled to the fact that both MiL and FiL are disabled, diabetic, over 20 stone each and prone to falling over. BiL and SiL have banned them from carrying their youngest children about because FIL fell on the stairs and dropped their son but I know DH isn't quite that strong and he will let them drag LO about.

Partly though because I don't think they are good people to have around a child, given the way they treated DH as a child. One of their favourite family stories is the time they had a neighbour strangle his rabbit and leave it in the cage for DH to find because it was ill and they couldn't affort the vet and wanted to teach him about death and heaven. He was nine at the time and heartbroken.

And partly because I know they will be happy if they can get DH and LO without me.

They don't do anything with their other grandchildren. They are too big and too unfit to run around or play and they only show an interest if it means they get to be visitors in someone elses house. They don't actually want to play with or talk to the children very much, they like to use them to show off to people with but they think a walk to the park or the beach is too much effort.

DH thinks I am being unreasonable to keep LO from his grandparents. I think it's unreasonable to let them have human contact with anybody because they are insane.

So, am I being unreasonable to feel I have to protect myself and my son from these people and their problems and nastiness? Would you think this behaviour is acceptable? Is them saying they don't hold any of this against me a reason to forgive and forget? I mean, it's not even an apology in my eyes but DH says it means they have accepted responsibility for all the trouble. I don't think so, I think it means they blame me for it all but are letting me off. Or are they being unreasonable to think they can have a relationship with us after all that? Is DH unreasonable still to see them at all, with or without LO.

OP posts:
PinkSchmoo · 03/05/2011 22:12

Keep your lovely boy away from them.
Keep a record of their harassment and let them and your DH know that if they don't keep out of your life you will get the police involved.
Try to get your DH counselling to deal with the effects that surely follow being brought up by these disgusting people.
You have had so much pain - don't let them inflict anymore.

wizzler · 03/05/2011 22:23

So sorry that you lost your DC.
I wouldnt let my DS anywhere near them. They do not seem to have one redeemable feature. They will only have negative influence on DS. Best of luck.

takethisonehereforastart · 04/05/2011 10:41

Thanks for that everyone. It really is a relief to have people say what I've been thinking rather than telling me MiL just doesn't think before she speaks and I'm the one upsetting her. You hear it often enough and you start to believe it.

I think I will show DH this thread. The entire family seems to do that thing where nobody really talks about anything and just pretends it's alright.

Seeing what other people think might just be the wake up call her needs to accept this really isn't normal.

I know reading it back like this myself it seems even worse than it did as it was happening because it's all here in one place.

No matter what, I am definately sure now that keeping LO away is the right thing to do. I've been made to feel like I was using him to spite them rather than protecting him from them and it's good to see what people outside the situation actually think. Thank you.

OP posts:
KaraStarbuckThrace · 04/05/2011 10:45

Please do show this thread to your DH!
As a lot of these incidents occurred over a long period of time it may not seem as bad but when you write it all down together you realise it is in fact systematic abuse.
I suspect your DH has been treated appallingly by his parents as a child and sadly may not know any different Sad
But he is a grown up now with a family of his own and YOU and your DS need to come first in his life!

saffy85 · 04/05/2011 10:59

YANBU at all, not in a trillion years! Shock That has to be one of the most horrible list of abusive behaviour I have ever read!

Get the fuck away from this poisonous lot and never look back. Your DS might not thank you for cutting this lot out of your lives but he definately won't thank you for hanging about and therefore allowing them to treat you and him like this. The worse feeling in the world is regret ime. Followed by guilt.

TastesLikePanda · 04/05/2011 11:13

Shock and Sad and Angry on your behalf.

Like everyone here says - YANBU, you need to look after your son, and yourself. Your DH joined the services - I do not feel that this is a coincidence. He can 'get away' with his job, you need to get these people out of your life and your DH needs to support you in this.

Best of luck.

MintyMoo · 04/05/2011 13:23

Oh. my. god.

I would have called the Police by now with all their harrassment of you. Their cruelty to you when you lost your babies is unforgivable. Horrendous. (have an un-mumsnet hug). I'm also amazed you've not snapped and killed them yet. I think if my PILs were like that I'd be in jail.

One of their favourite family stories is the time they had a neighbour strangle his rabbit and leave it in the cage for DH to find because it was ill and they couldn't affort the vet and wanted to teach him about death and heaven. He was nine at the time and heartbroken

And your DH thinks people who like to have their childrens pets killed and left for them to find are people who should be involved in his child's life?

Show him this thread. Make him read that Toxic Parents book and find him a counsellor so he can see how Toxic these people are.

scaryteacher · 04/05/2011 17:12

Tell your dh that his family will affect his career, especially if he had to be Direct Vetted for his security clearance at any time.

It os not fiar on you to deal with this if your dh is on deployment. Alternatively, see if he can get an accompanied foreign posting (Brussels is nice) and then you won't have to see them....or move to a married patch far away.

jeckadeck · 04/05/2011 17:20

Christ on a bike. She sounds toxic. I think you are well within your rights to cut her off and insist LO have nothing to do. I think you have to let your DH negotiate the relationship for himself though. Does he accept your cutting ties on behalf of the LO?

MadamDeathstare · 04/05/2011 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JanMorrow · 04/05/2011 17:30

you poor poor thing! You are being entirely reasonable by staying away from them and keeping your son away from them too! What possible benefit would he get from contact with them?

Really, I think your husband should take a stand and have a serious conversation with them. Please make sure he doesn't "lend" them any more money too! Obviously it must be difficult for him but I would be furious if my in laws did even a fraction of what yours have done- even just the name calling alone would drive me into a rage- and I would expect him to stand by me and tell them to back the fuck off. He needs to man up!

Good luck.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 04/05/2011 18:08

If only a fraction of what you say in your OP had happened, you would be utterly reasonable to cut them out of your life and to keep your little one away from them. My jaw dropped when I read your OP - it beggars belief that anyone could be that horrible to their own family - they don't deserve contact.

Miggsie · 04/05/2011 18:20

Your MIL has a personality disorder...no doubt about it. See this website for official descriptions Royal College of Psychiatrists and this one from mind

Cut her out of your life right now! Your DH will certainly have suffered growing up around her, and it makes sense to concentrate on him and your own family unit rather than your MIL. I had a toxic granny and it was no fun being her grand child, I finally stopped seeing her in my teens, but my brother and I still shudder when we talk about her (generally in terms of "that bitch, do you remember...?" type stuff.) She made my mum's life an absolute misery, my mum wished she'd cut contact years before she actually did it. She undermined my dad his whole life and it really blocked his life achievements.

cottonreels · 04/05/2011 19:57

Wow, I don't know where to start. Firstly, Im so, so sorry for your losses and not at all suprised that you may have related depression. That alone has to be incredibly tough on a person.

Your Mil sounds absolutely barking. Baby obsessed, selfish, compulsive liar, unable/unwilling to cut the apron strings, completely tactless, spiteful and a user to name just a few.

I dont normally bandy the counselling thing around but in this case I think it would be good for you - both for the berievements and for your inlaws. I know your DH is often away, but couple counselling too would be useful as well as discussions on how you will bring up your LO differently. Some of the parenting your DH has experienced will seem normal to him and I think talking about it to others will help him realise that its not.

I certainly think you will feel more sane not having them and their problems in your life. Usually I think that the grandparents love their grandchildren and its best if they form a relationship - but not in this case.
You say your DH wants to take the baby there. Ask him why? To form a loving relationship? Because it would make his mum happy? Beacuse otherwise family might talk about him? Guilt? Unless he can convince you its best for the baby (its not) dont do it. Theyll make lies up about you if you do it or you dont, so suit yourself.

So in short, protect yourself, not acceptable, you dont need to forgive and forget. I dont think DH is unreasonable to still see them - they are his parents so it must be his choice. But he must learn to stick up for you and your decisions and learn how to confront their nastiness with simply refusing to be party to it and walking out.

All very hard for you. I hope you have support and people in real life to vent to too.

One thing I wanted to draw your attention to is:
I lost our daughter. They told everyone about a totally made up medical condition they thought I had.
It just struck me as that should be 'we' not 'I'. Many apologies if its not appropriate to mention it, I just wondered if it wasnt merely a mistype but that you thought it was your fault somehow, or that the loss was yours alone? Maybe it is always like that for the woman, that the loss is greater somehow, I dont know...I really just wanted to mention in case it is something unresolved with respect to you emotionally dealing with your losses. I hope you don't mind, Im not nit picking at all I promise.

Massive hugs and enjoy every minute of your LO.

takethisonehereforastart · 05/05/2011 22:49

Thanks again everyone.

DH is not happy about them not getting to see LO. He seems to have this idea that they will be different as grandparents, more like his were with him. With the distance at the moment I think he's starting to see things as he wants them to be rather than as they really are.

Moving isn't an option at the moment, although it's something that does go through my mind and I think if DH forces the issue of them seeing LO it will become part of the solution.

I will look at those links, thank you.

I do have people in RL to talk to but sometimes I feel like they will be on my side no matter what (which is good) but I wanted the opinions of people who don't know me and who would have said if they thought I was wrong.

cottonreels thank you. It's hard to explain about the losses. It's 'I' and it's 'we' really. Obviously we both lost our children and DH was and still is just as heartbroken as me. But he seems to have accepted it in a way that I can't. I don't think my loss is worse or better than his loss but grief is personal to each person so it's always different.

Grief to me feels like I've been handed a giant snake. I'm trying to cope with holding it but it moves and changes under my hands and I'm always working hard to make sure it doesn't crush me or bite me. Some days I make a better job of holding it than others. DH is holding onto it too but we're never holding the same part for long and it's not a tame thing so it's always unpredictable. It's not possible just to put it down because you don't know where it might go and it's wound it's way around you so it has to let you go too.

I think I'm trying to say that we are having the same experience to a point but we aren't the same person, so it's not going to be identical. It's aways going to be both I and we.

Rationally I don't blame myself but emotionally I think anyone who loses a child feels to be to blame in some way. I have a friend whose child died neonatally from a virus she couldn't possibly have known about in time but she still blames herself for not knowing. I use a loss forum for support and you see it a lot. "I was pregnant so it's my fault", "my body let my baby down", "I was her mother so I should have kept her safe." I've said them all and meant them all even though I also know it's not true.

And physically it was very different for me for obvious reasons. DH went through a different experience there because obviously he wasn't the one who was pregnant or ill, again not better or worse because although we both knew we were going to lose our daughter after she was born, the doctors were keeping things from me that they were telling him and trying to prepare him for the chance that I would die too. So I don't mean he had an easy time there, he didn't. But we had equally difficult and very different experiences in that way.

I don't know if I'm making sense or not here. I think I've gone off topic a lot but weirdly this has helped too.

I think I might change my username to Queen Of The Long Posts now so you can't all say you weren't warned Smile

OP posts:
DuelingFanjo · 05/05/2011 23:11

gosh, sounds horrible.

Do you have an ally in sil?

hairfullofsnakes · 05/05/2011 23:48

PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT let these vile creatures see and infect your LO. What the hell is your dh thinking when he wants your child to visit them?! Why on earth is HE still visiting them? You all need to cut contact with these TOXIC people now. I don't think I have ever felt so moved by a thread before or so desparate to offer my thoughts and I really want you and your family away from these awful people! Don't let them infect your child please and insist your hubby stays away at least until he is stronger to insist they act like decent human beings (maybe he could do with therap to repair some of the damage they inflicted on him).

I really hope you keep yourself and your child away from them - no good will come if you let them see your child - say No!

hairfullofsnakes · 05/05/2011 23:51

I am so so sorry for your loss too of your children x

Saucepanman · 05/05/2011 23:57

Shine a light OP. YADNBU. I wouldn't entertain even the notion of them being part of your child's life. Your DH needs to cut the cord/grow a pair/insert similar cliche here. Unfortunately he probably has been conditioned to think some of this is normal to a certain extent, if it is what he has grown up with. I once sat and watched my SIL and her sister sit by whilst their mother was deliberately cruel and mean to my 9yo nephew. I was blazing, and DH explained that they wouldn't even stop to realise it was wrong as that kind of behaviour was what they were used to. Not saying it's right of course. Good luck OP, keep us updated.

WhereYouLeftIt · 06/05/2011 01:04

Wow. Your PIL are the sort of people for whom the phrase 'fuck off' were invented.

So sorry for your losses. And also so sorry that your DH has been so damaged by them. You said yourself that after just a few years their behaviour had become 'normal' to you - and you met them as an adult, buffered by your own upbringing with a clearer sense of truly normal. He has no such protection, they have shaped him to their own ends from birth. Did he also leave home at 16/17? Straight into the forces? Or did they keep their hooks in him longer, since he was their last?

You need to keep your son away from these people, or they will damage him, physically or emotionally. You are quite right to keep him away from them. Your DH also needs relief from their influence, but is patently not yet in the right place to see this for himself. I don't think he can be until he has outside help. I don't normally see counselling/therapy as a first resort, but your DH sounds in serious need. If he's in the forces, could they help - do they have counsellors/therapists as part of their medical branches? There is another Topic on Mumsnet called "Forces Sweethearts", perhaps if you started a thread there, there would be people who could discuss such matters with you?

malibustac · 06/05/2011 01:14

Firslty I would just like to say I am so sorry for your losses. So horrible you have to deal with this added pressure on top of everything else. Dh should be protecting you not his mother.

YADNBU op I am in total shock reading this. Apart from the horrific bits about your lo's does DH realise that she physically assaulted your son by lifting him by the neck? Its disgusting to think anyone could treat a family member like this. I agree it does sound like she has a personality disorder but to be honest fil $ust be the same to condone such sick actions.

Your DH can't possibly believe they will be good granparents to lo when they are such shit parents. Does he question why he spent so much time with his own granparents?

Please keep your ds away from them, if dh wants to see them that's down to him but your son doesn't need to be subjected to such hatred. I hope your dh realises this would be best for your boy.

malibustac · 06/05/2011 01:25

Firslty I would just like to say I am so sorry for your losses. So horrible you have to deal with this added pressure on top of everything else. Dh should be protecting you not his mother.

YADNBU op I am in total shock reading this. Apart from the horrific bits about your lo's does DH realise that she physically assaulted your son by lifting him by the neck? Its disgusting to think anyone could treat a family member like this. I agree it does sound like she has a personality disorder but to be honest fil $ust be the same to condone such sick actions.

Your DH can't possibly believe they will be good granparents to lo when they are such shit parents. Does he question why he spent so much time with his own granparents?

Please keep your ds away from them, if dh wants to see them that's down to him but your son doesn't need to be subjected to such hatred. I hope your dh realises this would be best for your boy.

hairfullofsnakes · 06/05/2011 04:29

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this. Please NEVER let these people near your boy again, they will damage him - definitely emotionally and I wouldn't trust them physically.

Your dh needs counselling to deal with his toxic childhood - the fact he would even contemplate letting these toxic people near your LO after their behaviour proves that. I am aghast he would even think about it. Be firm and say NO way. And I agree with getting a harassment order against them. This has infected you all for too long. Shed them once and for all.

Morloth · 06/05/2011 04:50

Dump the lot of them, seriously no contact whatsoever between you and them. It doesn't matter why they are like they are, you don't have to have anything to do with them. Change your telephone number and do not give them the new one, if they come to your house tell them to leave, if they refuse call the police. You tell them once 'Leave me alone, I do not want to know you'.

In fact given that OP I would be giving DH a 'It's them or Me' ultimatim. If he choose them then we would be talking to lawyers about very strict contact arrangements.

You don't have to put up with them.

CheerfulYank · 06/05/2011 04:52