to think about shopping my 'cousin' to the DSS?

[AdelaofBlois]

Have just had a visit from my partner's cousin, who seems to come round in the school holidays for some cheap childcare. She revealed in the course of conversation that her children's much vaunted scholarships to private school were in fact paid for by her landlady, who also pockets her HB but doesn't charge rent, and that her 'genteel jobs' (nannying, jam making) are bringing in cash-in-hand while she claims benefits. So, basically, she's living in a lovely village, kids at private school, doing nothing much, and claiming huge amounts of benefit fraud. Which seems all the more inexcusable given the standard of living.

Personal annoyance is making my fingers itchy near the phone. But IWBU, wouldn't I, it's just jealousy?

Come into the garden, Shirl... you'd love it out here.

Just put it all in a letter to the local authority's fraud office. they will investigate where appropriate and work out what's fraud or not. Give as much detail as possible ie; name, address, date of birth, kids names and school, places where she sells jam etc.

The big one they will look into is whether the landlord is actually charging rent or not and the ability to pay school fees will have some bearing on the likelihood of rent being paid.

Sorry, to clarify. Basically, the landlady is a rich old woman who likes my cousin, and is basically paying for her to live. So the 'scholarships' are not scholarships at all, it's just that's what they've been described as up until now to cover up the (to her) embarrassing fact that the landlady pays full whack for the kids. That's sort of irritating (in a 'if you are posh you will always be posh even if you have no money' way) but, hey, if someone is silly enough it's their money.

But, my cousin says, the landlady does not charge rent at all, but informs the benefits office that she does to allow my cousin to claim HB (which is syphoned back to my cousin). So cousin's living income is basically HB, other benefits and the cash-in-hand stuff (which she claimed was 'good' this week at 200 pounds so she was taking my aunt out for a treat). So, both she and landlady are in various ways committing fraud.

I have to say I really don't want to shop them, it's just petty and mean, advantages nobody, and I wouldn't do it if they were living next door on this council estate. But there's something about the 'how lucky we are to live in the country and go to private school' crap she spouts, and about her 'how lucky my kids are their Mum doesn't have to work in a shop' stuff, which really angered me anyway, and does so more when it turns out its based on some sort of semi-feudal deal and benefit fraud.

So the landlady pays her kids' school fees (irrelevant) and claims HB which would then be paid to the landlady who gives it back to her?

er...

You report, it takes months for the social to compile the information, so will be months before your partners cousin is made aware of it. You can report anonymously.

I'm not sure that this is fraud. Once the landlady has received the rent, she can do what she likes with it, because it is then her money. Surely?

Sorry, mucked up italics there

I agree the school fees thing is irrelevant to the 'fraud'. What grates and angers is the assumption that this set up is a 'reward' for being a nice person, and the sense of entitlement that goes with it. But the attitude and the fees thing is irrelevant to the fraud-it's just I was trying to vent a little and explain why I'm angry.

But the rent is fraud, surely? The landlady and her are saying rent is set at an amount to enable benefit to be claimed, and then giving it straight back, so that in effect no rent is paid but benefits money is injected into their lives. Obviously both parties agree to this, since my cousin was positively smug about how clever it all was. It might look like a 'gift', but it's pretty fucking dubious.

HB isn't necessarily paid to the landlord. It can be paid directly to the claimant.

It is theft. End of story.

As for being petty and mean and not being of an advantage to anyone....well assume the HB is what? £500 a month? That's £6000 a year that could be going to someone who actually needs the money. Not to mention the cost of processing the fraudulent benefit claim.

How would you feel if you knew she stole her groceries from the supermarket each week? Or if she drove off from the petrol station without paying? Or stole someone's credit card and paid for her kids clothes with it? Would you not report these acts of theft either?

If you like, give me her name and address and I'll report her!

x-post. Yes, the rent thing is definitely fraud.

The rent thing is not fraud.

Whatever their arrangements are they could and would be easily explained.

You are being jealous and you know it.

Just step back its really none of your business.

@gallicgirl

The point is, though, it wouldn't advantage anyone because she is entitled to the benefit. It might make her landlady unwilling to continue, uproot the kids, cause all kinds of upset, and mean the benefits were now spent on rent, food and what was really needed. That would be 'fairer', but it wouldn't free up the money for anyone else, in fact it might just add another name to the council housing list.

Look, it's wrong, isn't it? And I'm wrong in many ways not to report it? But I wouldn't dream of doing so if she wasn't irritating, which seems a good reason not to?

sense of entitlement

Bingo!

Do I win £5 in luncheon vouchers?

It may well look like fraud but if there is a tenancy agreement in place that states x amount of rent is due then rent is payable.

If the old lady then wishes to some how give that money away then that is her choice and nothing to do with you.

The working that is being done on the side is the only part of this that rings as benefit fraud to me. Have you any idea what benefit's are being claimed?

Aside from the benefit fraud I think you sound bitter and mean, you obviously begrudge the fact that your cousins children are getting free private education. They called it a scholorship so frickin what! This might be what the old lady wants to call it. Oooh and they live in the coutryside, how very dare they!

Well I suppose if the landlady has told the HB people what the rent is and it is paid to the landylady that part of it is fine... up to a point.

However if the landylady gives your cousin money (which may or may not to equal the HB money) then your cousin should be declaring the 'gift' and any income she receives over the £10 or £20 (can't remember which it is) she gets from her jam making & nannying each week.

So on that level the landlady may not have an issue but your cousin certainly does.

If the amount the landlady gives them is the same figure the HB pay then I think you can surmise that she is also involved in this and would also be in 'trouble' for this arrangement.

Look, I admitted form the start I was just feeling angry, mean and jealous, which is why I do NOT want to shop my cousin, and was to that extent just venting. But the context is important to understand my anger-this is a woman who openly pities those who live on council estates and women who work, who hates people who have children 'on the state', who opines that state education is totally screwed and wonders how I can work in it. The clash between that and what she's doing is huge.

And, having vented to my partner by phone, I'm sure the HB goes to her directly, because she's told my partner how nice it was to get it to her account not her Ex's, and how lucky it was she didn't have to pay rent so she didn't have to leave the kids. Which stuck with my partner, who does work outside the home. And, ultimately, whether or not I report it is not determined by whether it is technically fraud, but just by the fact it sure as hell looks like it....

Can guarantee if your cousin does get investigated her landlady will deny giving the rent back to her, bet it's given as cash. These people that commit fraud are masters at covering their backs!

Feel mean and am off to get the kids from their playdate. Have decided I am being unreasonable for the simple reason that in other situations I tend to feel that benefits cheating isn't that big a deal, given the basic crapness of living on benefits anyway, and that using the state to settle a personal grievance based on her personality, especially if it screws her (very nice) kids over is something I could not live with.

But others here now find me complicit and guilty too.

If it's true, then she is committing fraud. Does the landlady declare her extra income for tax purposes?

I'm pretty live and let live about welfare fiddles - but this woman is a career crook.

Don't waste time dithering about the rights and wrongs - just shop her, and put your thought energy into not getting caught.

I'm not going to comment on whether you should report your cousin based on how you feel about her, but here's the legislation:

^Circumstances in which a person is to be treated as not liable to make payments in respect of a dwelling

9.?(1) A person who is liable to make payments in respect of a dwelling shall be treated as if he were not so liable where?

(a)the tenancy or other agreement pursuant to which he occupies the dwelling is not on a commercial basis;

(l)in a case to which the preceding sub-paragraphs do not apply, the appropriate authority is satisfied that the liability was created to take advantage of the housing benefit scheme established under Part 7 of the Act.^

As I understand it, the landlady may have written a tenancy agreement stating rent is £700 (for example)per calendar month but isn't actually asking your cousin to pay that amount. The landlady and your cousin are saying that amount of rent is charged in order for your cousin to claim housing benefit which is paid directly to your cousin and there is no suggestion that she pays any money to the landlady in respect of rent.

The local authority would look at whether the landlady would evict your cousin if rent or housing benefit wasn't paid, would want evidence of rent paid to the landlady, eg rent book, receipts, bank statements. Given what you've said and that the landlady is paying school fees, I doubt she'd evict your cousin.

As far as the earnings from nannying and jam selling are concerned, if your cousin has declared the income on her benefit claim, then there's no problem. If she hasn't, then it's fraud.

The OP stated that the cousin "is entitled to the benefit" which confuses me somewhat. Housing benefit is paid to cover actual housing costs, ie; rent. if she's not being charged rent then there is no entitlement. Equally, depending on her income, she may or may not be entitled to housing benefit.

It seems to me from what the OP is saying, that there are two types of possible fraud here. I'm not having a go at anyone because I know the decision to report someone you actually know is a difficult one, but I don't quite understand why some people think benefit fraud is acceptable.

Bugger, italics didn't work.

yes, living on benefits is shit but this woman is taking the piss. If she was a single mum with no maintenance and getting income support or ESA and maybe doing a few hours a week at a minimum wage job, then I probably wouldn't say anything either. But she isn't supplementing her income a bit, she's getting rent free accommodation which in itself is worth thousands per year, plus the housing benefit plus undeclared income of around £200 a week. Makes you wonder what other benefits she getting fraudulently.

With a bit more information it does look well dodgy.
Hard to prove though surely?

Dont blame you for feeling aggrieved.

@gallicgirl

Thank you, this is therefore clearly fraud for the rent. The other income may not be-I don't know if it's declared, and is anyway clearly very good over the holidays and much less good at other times. Now I feel very unreasonable for not reporting it.

I really would hate to, though, because it is so much motivated by irritation at her huge sense of superiority and her views (she even stated that she felt my neighbours got too much benefit and that that was why they didn't care for their street) rather than any principled stand on benefits 'cheating' (where I habitually defend unknown fraudsters). And in many ways her life is shit, and I know that, both because of what to me seems a hideously entrapping relationship with the landlady, and because she pinned her life hopes on marrying a (to all observers very unpleasant) rich man, who turned out neither to be that rich nor able to ignore her various lies. I sort of agree she's taking the piss, but unless my motivations are purer I'm not going to be able to live with reporting it (which was why I posted-to get the anger out so I didn't). Is this equally unreasonable? Gawd help us.