Cyclists killed and seriously injured on roads.....spmeone is being unreasonable

[GabbyLoggon]

Big news in todays independent.(and elsewhere)

They say 230 cyclists are killed or seriously injured on our
roads every month.

Really? I would like to see those figures broken down to serious injury/death
The report says HGV drivers are often involved.

Cycling is becomming more popular here

Linking to the Telegraph article is interesting - what it doesn't spell out is that a gang of drunk teenagers jumped into the road to block the path of a cyclist. Ha fucking ha. He hit one of them because he took the reasonable point of view that they were fooling around and would get back on the pavement.

And that was the only fatality caused by a cyclist in 2 years.

BubbleCoral's first comment is noteworthy - that cyclists should leave space for vehicles to overtake them. No, it's the responsibility of a powered vehicle driver to overtake when safe, and only then. You don't expect to overtake a slow moving bus whenever you want, or expect it to drive in the gutter.

Cycle lanes are often badly positioned, covered in glass and end just when they are needed most. It's safer to ride on the road where they belong.

kungfupanda if I am commuting to my workplace and being held up by people in cars, I am not going to patiently wait til the traffic jam clears. I am going to go up the gap on the inside, carefully. If people are driving in built up areas, this is not exactly an unknown phenomenon that they should be surprised to happen. They should still be regularly checking their wing mirrors anyway even if stationery. I can assure that I am not stupid and if anyone in such a situation did run into me, would use all my skills as a lawyer to make them pay me substantial compensation.

ALovelyBunchofCocunuts if you introduced cycling proficiency tests, even less people would cycle for exercise than now. Obesity kills far more than cycling accidents.

bubblecoral there is already strict liability in many areas of law in Britain.

Why is there such hatred of cyclists in Britain? There are so many real problems with genuinely intended bad behaviour here, but to admit to being a cyclist is almost akin to admitting to being a war criminal in some eyes. All I can say is, if you run into me, count on being in court next time I see you.

And don't bloody overtake and then immediately turn left!

Gabby - of course...but there are blind spots and often a cyclist riding alongside a large lorry cannot be seen.

There's a big poster campaign to highlight this in London

smidsu

Sardinequeen - no-one is saying cyclists deserve to be injured or killed. I have been knocked off my bike and had my wrist cracked by a driver who did the wrong thing. Pure accident in that case rather than active stupidity. A friend of mine was injured by a woman turning right across a cycle lane - she then claimed he deliberately punched her windscreen causing criminal damage to her car. Fortunately there were two independent witnesses.

Car drivers can be stupid. Lorry drivers can be stupid. Cyclists can be stupid. But the thing is that if they hit a cyclist they are unlikely to be killed. If a cyclist is hit, they have a chance of serious injury or death. I think threads trying to debate who is more to blame are completely pointless as every incident is different. What is, in my view applicable across the board, is that it is in every cyclist's interests to ride defensively, to give way even when they are in the right, and do everything possible to reduce their chances of being in an accident. They might do that and still be hit of course, but they will have done everything possible to avoid it.

I can't believe how much cyclists are being blamed for their own deaths and accidents - how insensitive. I see way more prams being pushed out dangerously as people cross roads than I do bikes, but we would never be this nasty to someone who had had a scare or accident and it is almost a MN sin to suggest someone is responsible for their own obesity related problems, when they are aware of the risks.

Pigeon as for not taking risks as there might be a learner driver on the road, surely that is the responsibility of the instructor?

I read a study recently that claimed that as the number of cyclists increased within a city the individual risk of being in an accident on your bike decreased - why? Because cars become more aware of bikes in general and the council put more cycling lanes and things in. It didn't make any claims about the cycling standard increasing, so it is not entirely to blame, not by a long shot. I'm pretty sure the road deaths from cars is still a whole magnitude higher than bikes, which doesn't point to bikes being the problem. Being in charge of a couple of tonnes of metal should come with a huge deal more responsibility than a bike. We take for granted our right to run around in vehicles which are constantly getting bigger and more dangerous for whoever you hit, but have done nothing to recognise that in the driving tests.

I hope nobody here is the sort to lament when children used to be able to play outside in the streets, when car drivers didn't feel they owned the road and everyone else has to be sure to keep off it or be run down.

rubbish about bashing boyo. But everyone knows rogue lorry drivers tailgate for fun

And we all know from research that young male car drivers like to do a bit
of Clarksonesque speeding. (Women drivers are said to be more sensible on speed.)

I would not quote it if I did not think there was something in it.

But of course these are generalisations backed by some serious research

Anybody read todays Indy article I have just seen the front page. (The BBC are covering the story on the news.)

Thanks Ivy, I honestly didn't know that so I will take your word for it.

However, cyclists could choose to be more considerate and not ride side by side, making it easier for traffic to overtake and safe for themselves. Just because it's a rule, doesn't mean it's a good rule.

And Gabby, personally, I don't have experience of a lorry tailgating me, maybe I'm just a lot luckier with lorrys than cyclists.

Nesthaekchen "Of course it's a thing of enforcement but honestly, why not make it a law and only allow selling bikes with lights?"

Because many people buy bikes for use in competition and don't race in the dark, hence no need for lights. Also people want to choose their own lights and manufacturers don't want to be liable for accidents caused by malfunctioning lights.

DH also doesn't always use cycle paths because they're not made for the type of riding he does (i.e. he's riding often times at 25mph not tootling along at 5mph) and people meander across cycleways not looking, and the ground/pavement is uneven making riding safely nearly impossible. Plus motorist park on/over the cycle ways on double yellow lines making....
However, if he's in a busy part of a city where traffic is bad then he uses cycle ways because it's safer for all concerned. He said one of the best cities to cycle in was Bristol because they had so many cycleways, and so many people cycled thus motorists watched out for them.

nijinsky Fri 15-Apr-11 14:59:52
kungfupanda if I am commuting to my workplace and being held up by people in cars, I am not going to patiently wait til the traffic jam clears. I am going to go up the gap on the inside, carefully. If people are driving in built up areas, this is not exactly an unknown phenomenon that they should be surprised to happen. They should still be regularly checking their wing mirrors anyway even if stationery. I can assure that I am not stupid and if anyone in such a situation did run into me, would use all my skills as a lawyer to make them pay me substantial compensation.

There is a difference between carefully passing stationary, or very slow moving traffic, and the insane risks some cyclists take by trying to race up the inside or by hopping on and off the pavement. And again, I am less concerned about seeking compensation than avoiding the incident in the first place.

This discussion always goes like this - some people think any suggestion that not all cyclists take care is absolutely outrageous. Others think that cyclists are the work of the devil. Some cyclists are careful. Some are not. When I commuted by bike I spoke to other cyclists on more than one occasion about their behaviour - my point being that by irritating car drivers they are making life less safe for me on my bike. My DP has had pretty strong words with one of his cycling club for the same reason.

bubblecoral "However, cyclists could choose to be more considerate and not ride side by side, making it easier for traffic to overtake and safe for themselves. Just because it's a rule, doesn't mean it's a good rule."

You are obviously not a very outdoorsy, active or sporty person. If I am training in the countryside, on wide roads, for miles on my bike, why should I not speak to my fellow cyclist alongside me to while away the miles? Why should a car driver not have to wait 5 or 10 seconds longer to overtake safely? Its not a great inconvenience. Roads are not actually just for cars but for a variety of other road users. If you have sat a driving test, you cannot actually claim to be surprised to find some of those other users on the road.

As for lorry drivers, they do this for a living, and should be even more careful to drive to a standard so as not to endanger that living. They must undergo more stringent tests, which includes greater road awareness and the concept of thinking further ahead. To claim that lorry drivers are unware that people might commute on bikes and be on their inside in stationary traffic is just not believable.

My friends son has just come out of as coma after being hit by a police car in London when on his bicycle, not sure of the circumstances, but thankfully he is alive.

On the lorry driver issue, My dh was a lorry driver until just over a year ago, and he agrees a large number of drivers are very reckless. Of course there are sensible careful ones too- he was one of them!

He worked for new look for a while as a paired driver (some of the driving shifts were 17 hours), and he refused to work with several of the drivers as they were such dangerous drivers.

Fedup - glad to hear he is OK. Was that in the papers? I think I might have seen it.

nijinski That's fair enough, didn't think about those points. Bikes in Germany you have lights on the bike that light up when you pedal (not sure what they are called in English, sorry). But in addition to that you can of course pick your own lights. I for example had the normal lights on them but an additional electric light.
But maybe it could just be the law to have to have lights when out in the dark? Might be a nice compromise. Of course professional racers wouldn't necessarily need lights, that's right.
But I often see people here in Glasgow saying they don't have lights because they only take their bike out during the day. But of course when it's rainy or whatever lights are needed too and you can't always know that in advance.

There is a road in our city which has a cycle path on the pavement beside it all the way along- where do the cyclists go? On the bloody road. Cars have to swing out to avoid them onto the other side of the road as there are huge speed bumps (one on each side of the road) that you have to take square on.
To me, that is really irresponsible and selfish cycling- to not use a path when one has been specifically provided and to force traffic on to the wrong side of the road.

What's more, the cyclists then overtake each other on this road as well.

And what is with wearing an ipod or texting whilst cycling? It would not be ok to text in the car, for obvious reasons. Why is it Ok for any road user to do so?

Or cycling without a helmet on!! What is that all about?!

Given the fact that so many cyclists have such disregard for their own safety on the road, it amazes me that more of them are not hurt.

fwiw I am a cyclist myself, so know what a pain drivers can be. I also had a very serious accident on my bike when I was younger (and riding no handed, mea culpa!!) However, I think some cyclists do not take responsibility for themselves, and some cyclists behave badly.

I always look out for cyclists before I turn left. I nearly hit one once (turning left) so am now extra careful.

Nijinsky please don't presume you know me because we disagree on one aspect of the higway code. You do not.

I happen to prefer an outdoorsy sporty activity that has more to do with water than roads, and I like it that way because it means that my enjoyment of something doesn't inconvenience others at all, even for 5 - 10 seconds. Let's be realistic though, it can often be much more than 5 - 10 seconds.

Do you think your right to enjoy cycling on the roads is more important than my right to enjoy driving on the roads? Or are you going to claim moral superiority in the name of excercise or other such bollocks?

Has the Prime Ministeropped stopped riding the bike with the driver in the car some way back? (You were rumbled Dave)

We need seperate cycle lanes; but they are long term like popular electric cars.
The death RATE could push things along

If you make a choice to take up skydiving, you make sure you have all the right equipment, you know what to do and how to behave.

Likewise Horseriding, skateboarding, rock climbing, pot holing, hiking, orienteering.

Cycling on our busy roads is a potentially dangerous pastime/method of transportation. If a cyclist doesn't obey road signs, traffic lights, markings, or if they are tuned into iPods, talking on the phone, or not paying enough attention to their surroundings they are potentially placing themselves into the path of large fortified metal boxes travelling at great speed, and therefore at great risk of a collision.

They must understand that in a straight battle between a soft and fragile human and a hard metal box travelling at speed, it actually doesn't really matter WHO is the one that is at fault, THEY are going to lose.

With this in mind, it is absolutely essential that those that choose to use 2 wheels (and I AM including Motorcyclists here) have to accept some responsibility for their own mortality and do the very best they can to ensure that they are SEEN, they are where they ought to be WHEN they ought to be and NOT to disobey all signs, directions and road regulations just because they are technically agile enough to do so.

Yes some car/lorry drivers are not as good/considerate as they should be, but they are not potentially putting their lives at risk if they hit a bike. A bike rider darting up the inside, in dark clothing with poor/no lighting, ignoring the highway code, road regulations IS at greater risk and needs to therefore behave more responsibly.

The onus of cyclist death is not solely on car/lorry/bus drivers, it has to be shared by those most vulnerable, they must do all they can to minimise the risk to themselves.

Bless for mentioning the Highway Code

Does it cover all driving? Is it widely obeyed?

I am an ex cyclist. I regularly cycled round London in my pre-car days,and spent several holidays cycling round France.

I gave up when I had three accidents in a fairly short time period:

1. Car came out of side road and broad-sided me
2. Car came onto roundabout I was already on, and broad-sided me
3. Car went past me and turned left, knocking me flying

In all these cases it was broad daylight and good visibility; cycling defensively would have made no difference, so I reasoned that I'd used up too many lives already, and took to public transport.

Much though I enjoyed riding my bike, I will never cycle on the roads again until cycle lanes are separated from cars by at least a kerb, and preferably a crash barrier.

Councils should stop wasting money painting "cycle lanes" with white paint just so they can tick a green box.

I think there are lot of drivers who assume the roads are only from cars. This was an interesting article in the Daily Mail, and it showed how few drivers understand the rules regarding cyclists

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267554/Britains-barmiest-bike-lane-wide-rest-road.html

I can see both sides, because I (shock, horror!) am both a car-driver and a cyclist. Who knew you could do both?!

There are a lot of very good, responsible cyclists out there. Unfortunately, as a motorist/pedestrian the ones you remember are the idiots doing things like running red lights, not stopping at pedestrian crossings and cycling on pavements, amongst other things. I hate these people, they bring the rest of us into disrepute and then non-cyclists feel justified in slating us all. They also keep fucking overtaking me while I'm observing the highway code, and then I have to overtake the slow fuckers again. Grr.

However, it's doubtful that these irresponsible cyclists are the only ones being seriously injured or killed on our roads. As an example, I was cycling on a relatively quiet London road a few summers ago (carefully, wearing helmet & high-vis clothing etc). Checked over my shoulder, no vehicles behind, indicated right anyway and moved to the middle of the road in order to turn right. At which point a car roared past me on my right and screeched to a halt. He must have been seriously speeding as I hadn't seen him seconds ago when I checked. He then proceeded to scream at me and tell he was going to "fucking kill you next time you stupid fucking bitch". I was terrified, didn't say a word as was shaking too much, just amazed I didn't fall off my bike when he overtook me as I was turning.

One of my neighbours witnessed this, and then told me I should consider it a wake up call, it was my own fault for cycling .