To be pissed off at news report on stillbirth.Grrrr

[pink4ever]

Just seen a report on the news that has made me want to kick the fecking tv in. About stillbirths(women lost her daughter at 25 weeks). Mentioned that stillbirths can be caused by smoking,drinking and being over weight in pregnancy. I know this is true but they can also happen to people like me who dont smoke,drink etc(lost 2 babies at 24 and 28 weeks).
Am I bu because this has made me really angry. Women often blame themselves after going through this anyway(well I know I did,felt like a freak and a failure). Please tell me to get a grip.I know that stillbirth is something that needs to be highlighted but its still upsetting.

I am so sorry to hear of your losses. I agree that there should be OUTCRY about the lack of appropriate care and "mistakes" that cost babies their lives and wreak devastation on the lives of so many.

We all know smoking and drinking are bad and correlated with all sorts of bad things.. but no one talks about the basic lack of care/5 minutes with the midwife/lack of scans etc that contribute to the rate of stillbirth in this country. It's so easy to just say it's about maternal health as though that were the only factor that could be controlled.

I realise when I re-read my earlier post it might sound as though I don't advocate supporting women to have the healthiest pregnancy possible.. I do.. but because this is just better for women and babies anyway. There's something about discussing the generics of healthy living in this context that gets my goat: because there WILL be people who watch those segments and think to themselves "oh, well I don't smoke/drink/am a healthy weight so I'm okay" and there WILL be people who know someone who loses a baby who think to themselves "oh well, she was overweight" (distancing and "protecting" themselves from the reality that this can and does happen to anybody). People won't remember words like "correlated" or even understand what this really means.. they will see it as causal and I don't see the point of that in and of itself. Not without an honest discussion of antenatal care as a factor too.

I'm lucky enough not to have experienced a stillbirth, but can I just weigh in with the sheer bloody insensitivity of calling a post-24-week birth a late miscarriage. It really makes my blood boil, because my DS was a (surviving) 26-weeker and the idea that someone might have called him a miscarriage had he not survived is beyond horrifying.

Beyond that, I think Innish hits the nail on the head in that people don't want to believe that this kind of thing might happen to them, and that not drinking/smoking etc is some kind of talisman. I get asked quite regularly and intrusively by pregnant women why my DS was born early, with the barely concealed hope that it will be something about my lifestyle or pregnancy that 'caused' his early arrival. There wasn't.

please encourage all expecting parents to read

countthekicks.org.uk/

Innish, sorry my style irritated you. But I don't think trying to work out the environmental, lifestyle, health and other factors related to stillbirth needs to be 'cod science' - you take me to task for saying "We have to have information in order to support pregnancy better - smoking, drinking and weight issues are factors so lets work out ways to help women reduce their smoking, drinking and their weight."

And you say - you actually say - the following:

"Or let's just... not. Let's just realise that actually these are complex, multifactorial issues that are often associated with poverty and other social issues and that there simply isn't enough evidence in this case, and that the damage done to any mother who is already struggling with the immensity of loss actually outweighs some cod science."

Of course complex multifactorial issues are at work here and yes, they are associated with poverty and other social issues.

And you think my suggestion that research could perhaps work out ways of supporting mothers take whatever control they can take over these issues is somehow wrong? I don't get it. Or perhaps you are just making a snide comment on my 'tone' or 'style' - goodness knows.

I'll make another mention of the women who do smoke and drink and who are overweight....for whatever reason...and who lose babies. Their 'lifestyle' may or may not have contributed, but whatever, they'll feel terrible and as grief stricken as any other mother, and they don't deserve judgement or blame either.

Just wanted to say that I'm so sorry for your loses

It would be good if you had read my next post Tiktok. This is a thread where many women who had stillbirths report feeling unhappy with this message. I think your concern for public health may be admirable on other issues but using a distanced academic style and cheerleading for health promotion on this thread jars a bit, I feel. Everyone knows smoking, drinking and excess weight are not that great for maternal/infant health but they DO NOT account for 17 stillbirths a day. Counting kicks and vigilance about warning signs would be much better preventative messages vs allowing people to think that living a clean lifestyle is a talisman against evil as stated above. Let's focus on women's health for all women and babies without "correlating" lifestyle factors with stillbirth in a way that causes pain to women siffering heinous suffering and guilt already.

I have obviously pressed your buttons wrongly, Innish, and I don't think it is right you derail the thread with an unjustified pop at me.

I'm not cheerleading for anything - public health to me means care for individuals and in this case individual mothers and fathers and the loss of their babies, which are individual tragedies, no matter what the circumstances or lifestyles or environment, and if science can help reduce the numbers then I am all for it. It's obviously not the only approach. The reporting of all this risks being heartbreaking for people who have been through it, but at least it raises awareness of something a lot of the public don't even know about.

I don;t want to contribute to any further derailing now, so I'm off.

Well I'm glad of that.

YANBU. Mentioning risk factors is one thing, but they should have also made it clear that in many cases none of these factors are present.

By the way, I was not derailing the thread. It is not derailing the thread to take issue with one poster's opinion. And it is your opinion and how it was stated on this thread I disagree with, it is not personal (in case you think I am someone who didn't bf or had troubles bfing who has another issue with you). I didn't like the way you said it was "factual" as I felt this was dismissive of the emotion on the thread, which may work well when you're talking about bfing but is a whole different kettle of fish when you are talking about the death of children. The heartbreak and pain when you lose a child is neverending and indescribable, it is not something that being "rational" and "factual" about just to make a point on an online forum really helps. I think that your posting style is to be calm and measured when people are emotional about making choices that are contra- to the evidence etc but this is just NOT the same as bloody breastfeeding.
I simply don't agree with the "public health" line on this with reference to so-called "lifestyle choice" in the absence of more serious discussion about what medical professionals can do to reduce these figures and general discussion and awareness of things like counting kicks.

It seems to me that to focus on "lifestyle factors" instead of discussing the warning signs (until after the event) is just another stick to beat women with and to do so when you are dealing with women being in the worst mental torture of their lives is just callous.

If you look at the countingkicks website, there are countless women who will say that they never realised to go in to have a check if they didn't feel movement, that they didn't want to burden the NHS further, that they felt they were being "silly", that they were told after feeling unusual movements in the womb that it's a common sign of fetal distress... AFTER THE EVENT. Women are not advised on signs of an impending emergency routinely and, to be honest, I think it would be far better to focus on these things and be open about discussing stillbirth and how common it really is than to just make it one more thing that people can ascribe to women's behavioural choices.

My issue is with people thinking that these losses are public property that can be trotted out as another example of what happens to people who drink and smoke and are overweight and that there may be women who don't tick these boxes who deny their own instincts when they feel a baby not move etc because it wouldn't happen to them.

I find it really interesting that you can approach this discussion with such sarcasm and things like etc. This is a serious and upsetting discussion for a great many people and yes, I think if you do think that someone disagreeing with you is because of something personal (and react accordingly) you are better off not contributing.

I am so sorry for your loss. My only experience of such a tragedy was through a friend who lost her/their full-term baby in labour. It was found that there was a lack of amniotic fluid around the little one and he was 2 weeks over due. No smoking, no weight issues etc....

YANBU. I lost my baby boy Alexander at 41+1 weeks on 4th June 2011 at which point, I came across the articles mentioned above.
I have been beating myself up about possibly weighing too much - well I put on more weight than recommended anyway - and wondering if this was part of the problem (waiting for test results now - more likely to be placenta/infection as it turns out).
Consequently I have done a load of literature searching. It seems to suggest that there is an association between being obese (BMI>30) and stillbirth, not overweight. I can add links if people want. Also, the fact it is an association, not definitely a cause - obesity is also associated with diabetes/high blood pressure, which raises risks in pregnancy for example. Would the risks of obesity be reduced if these illnesses were treated?
People in my situation dont need a lot to beat themselves up over possible events that may have changed the course of things. Even though Im not obese, I am naturally taking no chances next time, but even so, I am sure there are risk factors out there that I havnt discovered that I could beat myself up with if the same were to happen again. Since I hit the 1 in 200 statistic of stillbirth/neonatal death, and have a higher risk now, statistics dont comfort me any more.

I was coming on to say what SolarPanel just said.

Publicising significant risk factors is fine and dandy.

But the report needs to balanced with the facts that for some woman, stillbirth occurs with none of these risk factors being present at all; and research into the causes is ongoing, crucial, and needs fecking funding.

Curlybug I am so sorry for your loss of Alexander. I know what you mean about not needing much to beat yourself with. I read the report that said pregnant women should always sleep on their left hand side, I always sleep on my right. It's something that upsets me every night now, I turn over to go to sleep and wonder if this is what killed my son. Even trying not to think about it, the thought creeps in.

YANBU. This happened to me a long time ago as well and the "what if" questions never go away. I agree with dear doctor but would also point out that my loss happened in the US where scanning and monitoring is much more frequent and it still happens. I am not overweight, do not smoke or drink and gave up caffeine during pregnancy. In every subsequent pregnancy I have been paranoid about sleeping in the right position and not getting sunburnt and numerous other OCD like traits. I am glad awareness is being raised and the hope of more research is there but I think mothers in general and pregnant women in particular have enough sticks to beat themselves with already so the media should be super sensitive in editorialising these stories.

Curlybug
I am so, so, sorry my love.

Please, take it slowley and be kind to yourself.

YANBU and I'm sorry you are having to come to terms with such a cruel and painful loss. Eventually the pain does stop but the memories never go away. Some stillbirths probably are caused by factors within our control but many others are well beyond them. I haven't had a still birth but I did have a little boy at 27 weeks for a very short time. I also had m/c at 12 and 17 weeks - and DS was born at 36 weeks (nearly died due to cord and the fact that the m/w thought the monitor just kept slipping until DH insisted a 2nd opinion was given about the heartbeat). DD was born at 41.5 weeks - the only pg that wasn't planned (in fact I was told not to while tests were being done but we had a blazing row - it was a bad time - and one thing led to another) so no folic acid and the only pg when I had a small g&t every day - on the basis that I was barely coping and took the view that what would be would be regardless of what I did and being perfect hadn't done much good in the previous four pgs. 51 weeks after the most indescribable trauma dd arrived: late, fat and screaming. (after an unstable start, 14 scans, almost weekly obstetric appointments - and he said a g&t won't do you or the baby any harm - and daily monitoring for the last three weeks). She's 13 now and was worth it all. I know that doesn't help but I hope so much that one day you will look back on a distant memory and hold your children ever closer to you.

With love and prayers and fingers and toes crossed for next time.

Thank you everyone. x
I dont want to be sensitive but its like walking on eggshells around me sometimes and anything like this makes me feel like a bad 'mother' who lost my baby through not caring enough...Im looking for perfection and it doesnt exist.

i know three women who lost babies late on or at birth. The loss wasn't their fault at all - they were healthy women.

I hope the report gave a balanced view.