to think these Gardai (Police) are the scum of the earth?

[MadMags]

Hello all,

First time posting. I'm that horrified that I've come out of lurk-land for this.

Background:

Gardai (Police) in Mayo, Ireland arrest 2 women who are protesting at the site of Shell Oil. One of the women had a video camera. While the women were being escorted to the station in Gardai cars, the video camera continued to record in a car which held a Sergeant as well as other policemen.

When the woman got her camera back the next day she reviewed the material and heard the entire conversation from the car, although the screen is mostly back since the camera was in a bag. The gardai, instigated by the sergeant make several references to raping one of the women!

Bascially, along the lines of Sergeant: "give me your name and address or I'll rape you". Garda: "Ah now Jim, she's been living in that crusty camp, you wouldn't know what you'd catch".

And several other comments along the lines of "give me your name or I'll rape you" and "I'll rape you anyway".

There is a video and the conversation in question is at about 13 minutes, 30 seconds in.

vimeo.com/21952231

Sorry this is so long but I am OUTRAGED! This is disgusting. I'm shocked and can't help but feel that I would hate to have to report a vile, sexual assault to these "men". I'm not sure yet what will happen to the gardai in question.

I am surely not BU!

I don't think trading sexisim for stereotyping is big or clever. SO not everyone agrees with you.

No, what's interesting, Rhinestone, is that the national stereotyping of Ireland is alive and well and as ignorant as ever. Which I expected would emerge in this thread as it's perfectly acceptable still for people to extrapolate all sorts of nonsense about Ireland as a country from a taping of a few individuals.

This tape represents a couple of buffoonish men who make a misogynistic joke in the pursuit of duty.

Who actually believes that there aren't those among "English men", "Scottish men", "Black men", "Pakistani men" who are exactly the same? Are Police forces renowned, in general, for their enlightened attitudes? An American cousin was followed home by a member of her forces and subjected to a sexual assault - were his actions because he was American?

Rhinestone, where's the "truth" in what you say? Let's have something more than trollish one-liners, if you can manage it.

Nijinksy, I wonder in what context you met these misogynistic Irish men?

I am sure if I went pubbing and clubbing in any major UK city I would see much that I could use to brand all men in the UK misognyists who act really badly. A casual tour around mumsnet makes it quite clear that misogny is alive and well and living in the UK within people's workplaces and homes.

Anyone who thinks there's that much difference between the UK and Ireland on these matters clearly has spent very little time in either country.

This is not about Ireland, it's about misogyny.

FGS, not all Irish men are like this. The Gardai do tend to attract some of the more boorish members of the community, as do the UK police IMO.

"But this is the country which doesn't permit abortion, and in which a 12 year old child who had been raped by a relative a few years back was prevented from travelling to the UK for an abortion."

Except the supreme court upheld her right to travel.

While I think everyone finds this whole episode disgusting, personally I am unsure of what disciplinary action I think they should receive.
My first instinct was if they are in uniform and actively on the job then the fact that it was meant to be a personal joke heard by no one else is irrelevant, the fact is that it was heard by others while they were on duty and the woman they were joking about was in the care of the gardaì at the time (I'm unsure if she was in their direct care or not) and that these 2 should be fired.

However my only concern is that it may set a precedent with regards to dismissing state employees/public sector workers who make inappropriate jokes in private when they think nobody would hear and who would set the treshold for what is to be deemed an inappropriate matter to joke about. I don't think anyone would have a problem with accepting jokes about the rape of a specific woman in custody, but what if they had made a joke about rape in general? what about doctors joking about death or illness who may be over-heard by patients suffering from a terminal illness or the relatives of a deceased patient? I'm training to be a barrister at the moment and the humour surrounding a lot of the courts and even the law school is fairly morbid and twisted but most would put that down to being a coping tool, however if picked up by the media or defendants it could be viewed as being wholly abhorrent and not in keeping with the standards one expects.

As I said I have no sympathy for these two and would happily see them fired. My only concern would be if the decision was rushed to set a dangerous precedent. I think that a patient approach towards their investigation so that it can be framed in terms of setting clear guidelines is and is not acceptable in terms of private jokes being over-heard and what the appropriate consequences are for such actions.

that aimed at me? sorry but I don't follow your point?

nope, @Rhinestone.

ah right.

They are idiots, who probably have no concept of how offensive their jokes are. But listening to the recording, it was clearly a private conversation and was probably mild by the standards of any law enforcement agency. As mayorquimby points out - dark humour is the norm amoung many professions. Which does not make conversations like theirs acceptable, but does mean that they are just unlucky to have been caught out. They were not trying to intimidate or threaten anyone.

Agree that using the incident as an excuse to invoke racist stereotypes is pathetic.

I also expect that if these men are made an example of, public opinion will be on their side.

Well put Unwind

"But this is the country which doesn't permit abortion, and in which a 12 year old child who had been raped by a relative a few years back was prevented from travelling to the UK for an abortion."

Well lets not the facts of the case interfere with a good story and some Irish bashing will we?
There was an attempt to prevent this girl (who was 14 btw not 12) travelling but this was thwarted by the Supreme Court which ruled that she had a Consititutional right to travel. As it happened she did not travel for the abortion but just because she had a miscarriage before she had the chance.
It was not 'a few years ago' either it was 1992 so almost 20 years ago, when Ireland was a completely different place to what it is now. While I am on the subject of correcting all the inaccuracies in your statement she wasn't raped by a relative but a neighbour (not that it makes a difference to the girl of couse, although I am sure the suggestion of incest appeals more to your tabloid approach to the story).

For what its worth I found Irish men in general to be very similiar to British ones - some sexist, some not.

theres good and bad in all societies.ive met many horrible british men but would not assume all british men are of this ilk.

anyway,im sickened by these gardai.not just for the comments but for the knock on effect of reporting rape.how is a rape victim going to feel comfortable telling the most horrific details,enduring an examination,if she/he feels like they will just joke about it later?

Thanks for that BlueFergie.

Wow @ some of the perceptions of Ireland on here. I for one am suprised to learn I'm living in a Theocracy! Yep, seems Secular to me.

I heard the tape and it sounded like two assholes trying to be sexist and hilarious but failing miserably. Their 'jokes' weren't even funny. They were just embarassing and pathetic.

The real story here is why the women are being treated with such contempt by the Gardai; Shell To Sea protest

glad the nob heads were caught on tape and will get punished.

but wtf @ all the anti irish shite. there is lots of video evidence of british police manhandling women. a policeman in northumbria was accused last year of raping vunerable women in custody. the list is endless.

as marilyn french once chillingly said 'all women are prey' and sadly it seems men in power abuse their position to prey on women.

mayorquimby ""But this is the country which doesn't permit abortion, and in which a 12 year old child who had been raped by a relative a few years back was prevented from travelling to the UK for an abortion."

Except the supreme court upheld her right to travel."

It was still the House of Lords then. And she was persuaded not to have the abortion, and did have the child.

"However my only concern is that it may set a precedent with regards to dismissing state employees/public sector workers who make inappropriate jokes in private when they think nobody would hear and who would set the treshold for what is to be deemed an inappropriate matter to joke about."

It aleady happens. It raises issues of the common law duty of trust and confidence owed by an employer to an employee. And possibly also the duty to provide safe and competent fellow employees - even if such a remark were not overheard by a member of the public, it is not outwith the realms of possiblity that a fellow employee could be offended by it.

IMHO there are few cases where such remarks would not be considered gross misconduct. The very nature of the remark goes so far towards challenging the basic dignity and safety of the person, or even general category of person, at whom it is directed. It is also hard to envisage, in our very policitally correct climate, who could reasonably expect to get away with making such a remark in the course of employment.

I do not think that you can say that such a remark is "made in private" when it is made in the course of employment. Even if such a remark were made at, for example, a social event outwith normal working hours, there would still be a valid arguement that it was made in the course of employment, particularly with regards to an employee whose job involved a certain amount of public standing and respect.

(interesting article on the principle you discuss at ILR 2005 Vol 34 Issue 4 284)

It was still the House of Lords then. And she was persuaded not to have the abortion, and did have the child"

sorry are you saying that a few years back the House of Lords was making decisions on Irish cases? firstly what case and what qualifies as "a few years back". And secondly if it was being decided in the house of lords how is it an Irish issue?

Winter - I applaud your eloquent arguments. Please don't call me a moron and in any case, why are you singling me out? The OP agreed with me.

I am actually half Irish and I don't like it there for the reasons explained and I don't appreciate your attitude.

nijinsky There is no 'House of Lords' in Ireland and if you're talking about the X-Case the girl never had the baby at all. She did indeed miscarry.

nijinsky I don't know what case you are referring to if it went to The House of Lords. If it did so it must have come from Northern Ireland and not the Republic since the Supreme Court has had jurisdiction here since 1937.
If you are actually referring to the X case which was a huge case here in the early 90s then it certainly went to the Supreme Court and not the House of Lords.
My understanding is the girl in question had a miscarriage. In any event that is not the point. The point is the right to travel was established by the highest court in the land and was done so in time for her to obtain and abortion if she choose to. So making your original point about her being prevented from leaving incorrect.

ireland is not a perfect society, if you look at its history you might appreciate why it is in teh state it is. the catholic church will lose its grip there eventually but in the mean time there are much worse societies. its not like they stone women to death for adultery.

this incident is a couple of boozos behaving like boozos. i think the nationality is irrelevent