To think if the gov are serious about social mobility they should be banning privately educated kids from taking state grammar school places?

[MilaMae]

Spending ££££ on tutoring to get your kids into a grammar school is one thing but sending your kids to a private school which is free from the national curriculum and able to spend every day teaching to the 11+ is wrong and buys kids school places which should be reserved for the state educated.

Alongside freedom to teach to the 11+ private schools have tiny classes so it's pupils have even more of an advantage. Many of these children won't even be naturally bright and shouldn't even be at said grammar schools.

In our local area apparently far fewer state educated kids got into grammar school this year. Obviously this is due to more privately educated kids applying for places due to parents struggling to pay fees in the current economic climate.

This is wrong. Grammar school should be reserved for state kids only. For many kids rightly or wrongly it's their one big shot at getting a leg up in life. The rich shouldn't be able to hoover these places up because they're feeling the pinch.

You can't put a stop to tutoring but the gov could put a stop to this very unfair practice(if they truely believe in social mobility).It would be very easy to control.

This isn't sour grapes on my part(my dc are tiny) just an observation.

OP: "To think if the gov is serious about social mobility..."

Err they're not. The only social mobility they're interested in is keeping themselves and their stinking rich mates at the top of the food chain and the rest of us plebs at the bottom.

Pranma, I think the grammar system did allow social mobility for bright kids. But less academic kids in the 1950s would still have had little chance at social mobility and 'bettering themselves'.

It was a fantastic way out of poverty for poor bright kids especially as it often led to free higher education. But I certainly don't think it can be called 'fair'.

When it comes to education I am not going to sacrifice my DCs and their future to 'the greater good'. I am profoundly grateful that my grandparents and parents strove to better themselves, otherwise I would hate to think where I would be now.
The system will never be fair. People will spend their money how they wish. If people put education first and scrimp and save and do without holidays etc they are entitled to do so.
It is hardly fair at the moment with old age, people who have saved all their lives will have it taken off them in care home fees and those who haven't will be taken care of.

Really? I see it just as being responsible to oneself - a moral person who doesn't seek to exploit others/society.

Ah - but being responsible to oneself != not exploiting others/society and morality need not de facto include either. Those are all somewhat different concepts.

It also depends an awful lot on what society one considers oneself to be part of.

I don't think that DCs of the parents who put ideology in front of their DCs needs have ever been very happy with it.

Taking care of your own DCs interests means that our family have risen from labourers to professions in only a few generations. I am doing my family history and way back in 1800 it was clear that they were doing their best within their means (when they were labourers) and not just sticking to 'their place' in case they had unfair advantage.

exoticfruits - yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

"What was needed was not the reduction/abolition of grammar schools but a change in people's perceptions of the seconday alternatives.Equal does not mean the same.Academic schools should not be seen as more desirable than others-just more suitable for one type of learning for those whose aptitudes lie in that direction.
I dont need my brain surgeon and my refuse collector to have the same skills but they certainly have equal value in society"

Could be a long wait

Our nearest grammar school is undersubscribed, if a state school pupil passes the test they will get in. I don't think privately educated children are preventing children from state school children getting places.

Frumpy - As long as their "equal value in society" was demonstarted by their salaries being reasonably similar then I wouldn't have a problem....;)

Actually, if my DC's weren't academic I'd rather they left school and learned a skilled trade than wasted their time getting C's at GCSE's. Going to a grammar school isn't going to make you clever.

I know I am a minority but I think mandatory academic education should only go up to 14 and at that stage, you can quit and pursue a technical/practical education (FT until you're 16). Obviously this requires a wholesale overhaul of the entire education system so is never going to happen, but there you go.

Baggedandtagged I sort of agree with you, but I would add the proviso that if at 18, 0r 20, or 25 the same person did want to come back into the education syatem then they should be able to access GCSE and A level tuition for free, rather than have to pay to go to night school.

Coalition

Frumpy- true. I think that flexibility would also make parents happier about their children deciding to pursue a more practical education.

Frumpy. I wouldn't have an issue at all if any of mine had been suited to more practical things. One still to go (Y4): she might be, we'll see. It's the right fit which counts.

This hatred of "middle classes" just makes me so cross I missed put in my teens basically working two jobs and doing A levels to be socially mobile and thank god I was able through hard work nit academic ability get to university and as a result can provide a betteR standard of living for my DC's and what do you get for your efforts ? Scorn and piss taking, far better that is not bothered at all eh ? And what makes me laugh is the despised middle classes us where so many want to be, my advice is don't bother wearing your bones out, sit back, relax you'll be happier for sure.

IgnorE typos am sat on a beach with my iPhone (grin)

I dont hate the middle classes - what a bizarre thing to say. What I do hate is a system which actively acts against the interests of working class and disadvantaged children, and which is easy for the educated middle class to manipulate to their advantage.

Privilege attracts privilege.

mamatomany I would describe myself as middle class - but not a supporter of Grammar schools. My point earlier in this thread is that all hardworking children, regardless of their apparent academic ability at 10, should be given the chance to improve their social mobility.

I grew up in a grammar school area and was very aware that friends who failed the 11+ went to truly awful secondary moderns where the teachers were not even qualified to teach to O-Level standard.

I am so middle class that my poo comes out wrapped in Cath Kitson fabric, and I have a child at grammar school. I still hate them, think they are hugely unfair, would not have sent my child to one if there had been a comprehensive school available,and think the system stinks.

Frumpy - do you believe that's still the case ? I doubt it some how.
Seeker - hate probably too strong a word but it's often how it comes accross you can't do right for doing wrong, I'm doing ok so the DC's are in private education but not doing well enough or had 3 too many to send them all the way through so should mine not sit the 11+ out of some sort of principal ? Who exactly would that benefit ?
I didn't go to grammar school and ended up with a better degree than DH who did so think it's all nonsense myself.

Actually, if my DC's weren't academic I'd rather they left school and learned a skilled trade than wasted their time getting C's at GCSE's. Going to a grammar school isn't going to make you clever.

A C at GCSE isn't a waste of time! You try getting an apprenticeship without a C grade in English and Maths! DCs are going down that route with A'levels-sensible if they don't want debt.

Oh I am sure you could have found a comp if you'd looked hard enough. Is it too late to move her to the alteR of sacrifice for your principals :D

Thousands of people have degrees and went to a secondary modern-I am one of them! The whole system stinks-lots of DCs develop later.