Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask whether or not people here believe in homeopathy - at the risk of floggin a dead horse...

242 replies

MistyB · 02/04/2011 20:07

Winter: Homeopaths are not unqualified - they follow 3 or 4 year degree courses including anatomy and physiology.

Alistron1: The principle of Homeopathy has been known since the time of Hippocrates from Greece, the founder of medicine, around 450 BC.

I am tempted to answer the bottles falling on the floor question but feel that you would ridicule the answer in the way that the Spanish Inquisition determined that the theory that "the sun was imobile and at the centre of the universe" was "foolish and absurd".

OP posts:
Snobear4000 · 04/04/2011 15:30

Homeopathy works, just as good as any placebo.

Which is to say, of course it doesn't.

pgpg · 04/04/2011 17:19

Snobear4000 - far be it from me to make any kind of apology/excuse for homeopathy, which I consider to be absolute bunkum - but placebos DO work. I think I know what you mean though Wink

MistyB · 04/04/2011 23:11

StatLove - sorry for the delay but your question did deserve more consideration that would have been possible last night, I tried to answer in 10 lines or less, however it is a rather controversial report of 275 pages!!

In response to the S&T committee report Cristal Sumner, chief executive of the Faculty of Homeopathy that represents medical homeopaths, many of whom work in the NHS, said:

"One should keep in mind the Science and Technology report is from only four MPs, one of whom dissented. It seems a dysfunctional way to govern if the suggestions from three MPS can possibly determine the health and welfare of thousands of patients, after a cursory review, which consisted of a few hours of oral testimony and a few dozen 3,000 word written submissions."

Shortly after the report was issued, an Early Day Motion (EDM 908) was tabled in parliament expressing MP's concern about the conclusions of the Science and Technology Committee report and was signed by 70 MP's.

The Health Minister at the time, the Rt Hon Mike O'Brien QC MP, may well have said, that there was no credible evidence that Homeopathy works beyond the placebo effect, he also told the committee that cutting the NHS spend on homeopathy is not justified and that a body of reputable people, including doctors, believe in it and that cutting the funding would be "illiberal" and "a denial of personal choice". He also said there were a range of opinions amongst clinicians and scientists which could not be ignored and he told the committee that there was "justification for more research" in homeopathy.

On the nine witnesses called on the first day, only three could be said to represent Homeopathy and only one was a practicing Homeopath. The witnesses included three members of Sense about science who are a lobby group that is aggresively pro-GM, pro-nuclear power, anti complementary therapies, who deny the toxicity of many banned chemicals, and are funded by the pharmaceutical and biotech industries.

In summarising that there is no evidence for homeopathy, the committee inexplicably overlooked the fact that, by the end of 2009, there were 74 randomised controlled trials (RCTs) of homeopathy published in peer-reviewed journals which describe statistically significant results, from which firm conclusions can be drawn. Of these RCTs comparing homeopathy either with placebo or established conventional treatments, 63 were positive for homeopathy and 11 were negative

The S&TC refused refused to allow any oral evidence from any patient representatives, a Primary Care Trust currently commissioning homeopathy, or the Society of Homeopaths, the largest organisation representing professional homeopaths in Europe with over 1450 members on its register.

The report was unable to say how much money was spent annually on Homeopathy but that it was likely to be between the Guardian estimate of £12 million and the Society of Homeopaths estimate of £4 million. This represents less than 0.01% of the total Health Spending in the UK.

The Society of Homeopaths agress that the quality and quantity of research is below the level that would be desireable. The mail reason for this lack of funding. I did not have time to put this in as much context as I would have liked but the annual profit of the biggest Homoopathy producer is 0.05% of one of the Pharmaceutical Giants. The entire annual profit of the Homeopathy producer would pay for one large clinical trial.

OP posts:
MistyB · 04/04/2011 23:15

Goose I've bored myself to tears now (not actually!!) but found this interesting analysis

2008 meta-analysis involving 35 clinical trials and 5,000 patients suffering from depression found that commonly prescribed antidepressants have little more effect than ?dummy? placebo pills.

Kirsch I, Deacon BJ, Huedo-Medina TB, Scoboria A, Moore TJ, et al. Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration. PLoS Med, 2008; 5 (2): e45

Should GP's be upfront about their placebo prescribing?

OP posts:
StataLove · 04/04/2011 23:23

Did those 63 statistically significant studies include the one from the BMJ where the editors added a comment about the fact that it's not actually statistically significant? Do the 'peer-reviewed journals' also include Homeopathy which is, presumably, peer-reviewed by homeopaths?

Systematic reviews of the literature find no evidence of an effect from homeopathy.

These are the committee members - far more than 4 MPs.
Mr Phil Willis (Liberal Democrat, Harrogate and Knaresborough)(Chairman)
Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (Labour, City of Durham)
Mr Tim Boswell (Conservative, Daventry)
Mr Ian Cawsey (Labour, Brigg & Goole)
Mrs Nadine Dorries (Conservative, Mid Bedfordshire)
Dr Evan Harris (Liberal Democrat, Oxford West & Abingdon)
Dr Brian Iddon (Labour, Bolton South East)
Mr Gordon Marsden (Labour, Blackpool South)
Dr Doug Naysmith (Labour, Bristol North West)
Dr Bob Spink (Independent, Castle Point)
Ian Stewart (Labour, Eccles)
Graham Stringer (Labour, Manchester, Blackley)
Dr Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton Kemptown)
Mr Rob Wilson (Conservative, Reading East)

Gooseberrybushes · 04/04/2011 23:44

Misty: very nice. Good show.

MistyB · 05/04/2011 07:26

The minutes show that the following MP's were present and voted.
Mr Ian Cawsey
Dr Evan Harris
Dr Doug Naysmith
Ian Stewart

The others are members of the committee but were not there.

OP posts:
MistyB · 05/04/2011 07:51

The Chair was there but did not vote.

OP posts:
StataLove · 05/04/2011 19:09

Select committees don't work like that. This report had been discussed at many other meetings as well as minutes being circulated. All MPs on the committee had a chance to comment.

The committee looked at all evidence and did say that there were many small trials with low statistical power and poor methodology, especially in journals such as 'Homeopathy'. The MPs looked at systematic reviews and meta-analyses of all these trials which is exactly what they should have done. Unsurprisingly, the conclusion was that homeopathy doesn't wrok.

It's telling that the report actually HIGHLIGHTS how misleading the evidence submitted in favour of homeopathy is. What do you make of that Misty?

It is, in fact, an excellent report. It just doesn't say what you want it to say, rather it reflects what the evidence says.

MistyB · 06/04/2011 20:29

We are not going to agree are we Strata?

There is not a compelling amount of large double blind trial evidence to support Homeopathy, that is not in question. However, the trials that show it performs no better than a placebo are not without their critics within the community which understands the principles and practice of Homeopathy. The BJM itself recognised a reporting bias where only pro pharmceutical industry studies are published and said that too many of the published drug studies are no more than industry-sponsored infomercials. The S&T report witnesses against Homoepathy included more pharmaceutical industry sponsored lobbyists than qualified Homeopaths. Against, this Homeopathy stands little chance of having it's feeble voice heard.

Not all NHS treatments are held to this gold standard of evidence. If funding were stopped for all NHS treatments that did not have compelling amounts of large double blind trials to support them, treament options would be limited to 11% of current levels and there would be no vaccinations what so ever.

The survey from the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital which surveyed 6,500 patients with diverse complaints over six years, 70% reported improvement in their symptoms and well-being for conditions that had not responded to conventional treatment. To dismiss the possibility of giving improved health outcomes to millions with no side effects, at what is likely to be significantly lower costs that the current health models in the UK, while we spend more on treating the side effects of medical intervention seems foolish at best.

That Homeopathy is the subject of such outrage, anger and abuse when there are bigger issues in the NHS is simply beyond my comprehension.

OP posts:
WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 06/04/2011 20:31
jaggythistle · 06/04/2011 20:51

Do you lknow at all how clinical trials work Misty?

There are legal requirements, you know.

Pharmaceutical companies may not be perfect but can't just put out any old shite.

MistyB · 06/04/2011 21:09

The "industry-sponsored infomercials" comment was a quote from the British Medical Journal. And, yes thank you, I do.

OP posts:
jaggythistle · 06/04/2011 21:14

You just sound very dismissive of the process, is all.

That may have sonded a bit offensive! Blush

They are not 'studies' though, they are stages of clinical testing that are required to release a drug on to the market. Calling them just studies seems misleading somehow.

I know what I mean and may actually find the words for it sometime...

StataLove · 06/04/2011 23:33

Sorry but that's a load of rubbish Misty. You've already been shown that the 11% statistic is misleading. You've already been shown that having people report that they feel better is all a placebo effect and nothing to do with homeopathy as a discipline.

You also can't dip into science as and when it pleases you and only when it agrees with what you've already decided. That's not how it works. You either sign up to scientific inquiry as a method or admit that you reject it and that there's no science to homeopathy.

You know you're in trouble when your defence of homeopathy on the NHS is 'well, other things don't work either'!

Gooseberrybushes · 06/04/2011 23:33

"To dismiss the possibility of giving improved health outcomes to millions with no side effects, at what is likely to be significantly lower costs that the current health models in the UK, while we spend more on treating the side effects of medical intervention seems foolish at best. That Homeopathy is the subject of such outrage, anger and abuse when there are bigger issues in the NHS is simply beyond my comprehension."

Right on the button. For all the sighing in the world.

StataLove · 06/04/2011 23:43

Shame there's no scientific evidence to back up such a claim. But don't let that stand in your way, of course.

Gooseberrybushes · 06/04/2011 23:49

What claim?

"To dismiss the possibility of giving improved health outcomes to millions with no side effects, at what is likely to be significantly lower costs that the current health models in the UK, while we spend more on treating the side effects of medical intervention seems foolish at best. That Homeopathy is the subject of such outrage, anger and abuse when there are bigger issues in the NHS is simply beyond my comprehension."

Hard to disagree with really.

You are going for the wrong target.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 06/04/2011 23:51

If you want to take woo water to make you feel better, buy your own, don't use the taxes of those who would prefer its spent on useful things like real drugs for dying people or respite for parents.

It's offensive to advocate for this con job nonsensical modern twat wakery woo to soothe the souls of morons who should know better, when theres not enough money for actual medicine.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 07/04/2011 00:02

I think it's perfectly reasonable to dismiss a possibility when it's been demonstrated repeatedly that it's about as possible as the presence of giant farting invisible unicorns circling Big Ben on a Friday night ( you can't prove there aren't any! They are invisible, and their farts are silent and don't smell. But they MIGHT be there. Don't be so closed-minded!). Homeopathy is bullshit, a total con job as has been shown in test after test. So it's both stupid and immoral to waste more NHS resources on it.

Gooseberrybushes · 07/04/2011 18:53

Winter, you seem incapable of civil discourse.

Oh, actually, you too springchickengoldbrass.

jaggythistle · 07/04/2011 19:08

I believe the frustration of no one listening may be setting in...

Gooseberrybushes · 07/04/2011 20:07

I know what you mean. The endless repetition of mindless drivel, without reference to anything sensible, starts to chafe after a while.

jaggythistle · 07/04/2011 20:36
Hmm
jaggythistle · 07/04/2011 20:38

I meant for S(c)GB and Winter, clearly. As you know.