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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask if the 'extremist group' in Florida are getting any form of punishment?

30 replies

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 08:47

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=13273981&page=4

Seems the church in Florida wanted to relish in some form of media frenzy which has now cost lives at a "crucial point" in the conflict. Obviously they are a minority but what is to stop other people who are perhaps a little trigger happy and, heaven forbid, enjoying the war doing the same thing? Is there any form of deterrent, perhaps at least the same sentencing as the burning of the flag for example? Although usually that doesn't cost lives and dissolve years of hard work and global sacrifice...

OP posts:
mayorquimby · 02/04/2011 09:11

Hopefully not, it's protected by the first ammendment as is flag burning.

chibi · 02/04/2011 09:14

so a crew of extremists commit a murderous atrocity against completely uninvolved people who were trying to help them, and you want someone else punished?

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:18

Oh goodie! So we now have middle American's inspiring further hatred as they please and no retribution whatsoever. Clearly it's not their sons or daughters fighting over there or they might think twice. Let's wait and see what lovely terrorist plans their actions will inspire and see if it was worth it then.

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Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:21

If there is no deterrent then this will happen again.

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meditrina · 02/04/2011 09:21

What the group did was not illegal, and therefore there will be no juducial consequences.

Their earlier plan for a burning was much reviled (didn't Obama speak against them?) and I think the pastor was advised not to travel to UK as he would be denied entry.

They are already facing "court of public opinion", and not finding much support. Their actions have the effect of provoking an already dangerous and volatile situation, and do not assist in finding solutions.

RIP to those who lost their lives in the latest atrocity.

chibi · 02/04/2011 09:22

well these murderers pissed me off and offended me - whose head shall i chop off then - according to you, i am entitled

ps normal people do not murder others as a result of being offended, however gravely

hth

sassyTHEFIRST · 02/04/2011 09:23

Would it be illegal in Uk though - "inciting religious hatred" ?

Fucking stupid, whatever else it may have been.

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:26

chibi I'm not saying anything about chopping heads off Shock! I don't understand why he can't get some penalty or prison sentence for inspiring anti-American feeling leading to loss of life.
I'm not even American but it seems odd that no one is actually punishing this guy at all. So what is to stop all the other gun toting crazies over there from bringing a whole new momentum to this?

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Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:29

YABU It's easy for a crowd to be whipped up to hysteria. Apparently, they were told there had been hundreds of Korans burned... The Americans doing the book-burning are being stupid, inflammatory and irresponsible but they are not 'responsible' for someone else's actions as a result.

To be guilty of inciting religious hatred the book-burners would have had to include something specific like 'we think you should all go out and attack muslims' in their speeches.

lionheart · 02/04/2011 09:29

I wonder if 'inciting religious hatred' would cover something like this. Perhaps it depends on what was said when the book was burned?

chibi · 02/04/2011 09:32

i really object to this - it seems to absolve the murderers of culpability, if only they hadn't been goaded etc.

the responsibility for these murders lies with the murderers, not with some fringe group who might have pissed them off

i can understand being careful with foreign policy, and thinking about the consequences of the actions of a nation state, but the us is a nation of what 400 million people - chances are someone is doing something that may be offensive to someone somewhere at any given time

it is ridiculous to hold this group responsible

Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:33

If we locked people up for 'inspiring anti-American feeling' the list of convicts would be a long one starting with George W Bush etc., etc "I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"... is a principle Americans and other supporters of free speech hold dear.

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:38

It's the further anti-Americanism it's inspired that I would worry about. It's all very well sane, logical people agreeing that what he did was stupid and aggravating the situation, but we all know that a little of what he did will linger in their minds whenever they hear "American". It's almost as if this guy has turned on his own Country and yet there is no deterrent for people not to follow suit. They get their own media hype, 15 mins of fame and everything! To some people that draw will be obvious. I'm not saying that the reaction was right or just or anything of the sort, just that it was obviously going to happen. Just as obviously as another Koran is going to be burnt and the whole cycle will start again.

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Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:42

chibi I'm not absolving the murderers, merely asking what will happen to the antagonists.

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Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:54

The people in this case were deliberately not given air-time in mainstream broadcast media but their inflammator actions were posted on YouTube or wherever.... that's the freedom of information we all hold so dear. Because of the riot, they're on the news broadcasts spouting their rubbish, but most of the responsible news stations are cutting the video short before the actual book-burning. They are being censored as much as is reasonable but, if we go down the route of shutting up people with unpopular but legal opinions we are no better than the tyrants and despots we claim to despise so much.

Extremists with their own agendas will use any excuse to justify their actions. There are specific laws about what constitutes the incitement of hatred and, if the Americans were to ignore them and shove people in prison simply for being offensive, there would be an outcry.

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:59

I guess if American's aren't bothered by the sentiments it gives off and think his actions were merely "offensive" rather than "inciting hatred" then Americans ultimately have to deal with that opinion and the reactions of the world to that opinion. Let's all hope he hasn't inspired anyone to do something similar to "offend" anyone else.

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Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 12:04

Doubtless it will have inspired others. That's just the way it goes. One person organises a peaceful protest march against the war in Iraq, someone else uses the march as an opportunity for a punch-up, another thinks disagreeing with the war in Iraq gives them the excuse to blow themselves and hundreds of others up on a tube train.... It's the price we pay for a free society. If everyone who was about to say something inflammatory that might cause a negative reaction was swiftly dispatched to a prison by the Thought Police and quietly executed then we'd be like China.... BTW that would be a bad thing.

meditrina · 02/04/2011 12:12

There are huge riots and further deaths in Kandahar today because of this.

The pastor must have known he was being provocative. I hope he can live with his conscience about his actions.

OliPolly · 02/04/2011 12:19

The pastor is actually an extremist himself.

EvenLessNarkyPuffin · 02/04/2011 12:21

The Americans are idiotic extremists. They burnt a book. It's words on paper. I don't want to live in a world where burning a book is punishable by law.

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 12:25

Evenless so what's the difference between a flag and a book?

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OliPolly · 02/04/2011 12:28

I am a Christian, I would be offended if someone burnt the bible - I wouldn't go ahead and behead people either - thats just wrong on so many levels.

No one is supporting the extremists who have killed and ionjured people. At the same time, those who burnt the Koran knew what they were doing and will have guilty consciences.

Original poster
Fab123 · 02/04/2011 12:30

Oli I don't think they did know what they were doing as it was obvious to everyone else what the result would be (and nobody stopped them). They even had a "trial" to try to justify it. I imagine they are at the front lines saying they can't be held responsible.

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meditrina · 02/04/2011 13:57

How can they not have known what they were doing when President Obama in September 2010 called the planned burnings "a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaeda" that could result in serious violence against American troops, and David Petraeus, U.S. forces general in Afghanistan, stated that it could endanger troops and the overall effort there?

If you look up the Dove Centre, to which these people belong, you'll find some nice other views (anti-homosexual campaigning), and he's admitted he's never even read the Koran.

One consequence of their actions appears to be the withdrawal of insurance for their premises.

Deliainthemaking · 02/04/2011 15:15

is this the phelps bac?