Skip to main content
Skip to main navigation
Skip to talk navigation

Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Unflip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Saved Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Unflip

1 2

AIBU?

To ask if the 'extremist group' in Florida are getting any form of punishment?

30 replies

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 08:47

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=13273981&page=4

Seems the church in Florida wanted to relish in some form of media frenzy which has now cost lives at a "crucial point" in the conflict. Obviously they are a minority but what is to stop other people who are perhaps a little trigger happy and, heaven forbid, enjoying the war doing the same thing? Is there any form of deterrent, perhaps at least the same sentencing as the burning of the flag for example? Although usually that doesn't cost lives and dissolve years of hard work and global sacrifice...

OP posts:

Report

Fab123 · 04/04/2011 15:30

Delia sorry, only just got your post. You're talking about the Phelps family in Kansas, right?
Just watched a docu on them actually, and seen that they had a Court case bought against them by the father of a young soldier who's funeral the family had picketed in 2006. He won $13 million awarded by the Supreme Court in a case that "could redefine the first amendment right of free speech" as the news broadcaster said.
The pivotal statement from the case was " There is a civilised way to express an opinion in America, but it does not involve intentionally inflicting emotional distress on others" read the father, after his win.

So, anyone going to take on Jones and his congregation? There's clearly been a precedent set for this kind of behaviour, but still no one is doing anything.

OP posts:

meditrina · 04/04/2011 07:57

Fab: it didn't happen on 11 September (which was the first proposed date), so they did get the message then.

I agree they knew there is no punishment in US law for what they did, but they must have known the level of condemnation - which is why I think this was done without pre-announcement. It's like using your right to free speech to shout "fire" (when there isn't) in a crowded place and starting a stampede in a which people die.

Mazar-e-Sharif was a success story in terms of being one of the stablest places in Afghanistan -until this. People died, both there and in Kandahar because of the entirely predictable (and predicted by Obama and others) reaction to such an act.

Aside from the moral responsibility they bear, it's telling that the pastors say they have not read the Koran, but are ready to condemn it in toto.

LoveLeonardCohen · 03/04/2011 00:28

Religion meaning extremist, fundamentalist intepretation. On both sides in this case....extremely sad and tragic for the UN workers...bloody hell how awful

LoveLeonardCohen · 03/04/2011 00:26

Another example of how religion poisons everything (not my words - Christopher Hitchens - I happen to agree)....

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 16:58

Meditrina Yes, I remember that in September. We all know that sane, logical people condemned it and knew what the result would be - but no one actually stopped it from happening and they all just sat back and watched. Therefore you can only assume that the people perpetrating didn't care, didn't believe in their President and other officials or simply knew that nothing bad would happen to them and so did it anyway.

Interesting about their insurance though. Shame that is the only way to penalise in the modern day and age. They could have upped the premium and sent it to an aid charity over there and that would have been slightly more beneficial...

OP posts:

Deliainthemaking · 02/04/2011 15:15

is this the phelps bac?

meditrina · 02/04/2011 13:57

How can they not have known what they were doing when President Obama in September 2010 called the planned burnings "a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaeda" that could result in serious violence against American troops, and David Petraeus, U.S. forces general in Afghanistan, stated that it could endanger troops and the overall effort there?

If you look up the Dove Centre, to which these people belong, you'll find some nice other views (anti-homosexual campaigning), and he's admitted he's never even read the Koran.

One consequence of their actions appears to be the withdrawal of insurance for their premises.

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 12:30

Oli I don't think they did know what they were doing as it was obvious to everyone else what the result would be (and nobody stopped them). They even had a "trial" to try to justify it. I imagine they are at the front lines saying they can't be held responsible.

OP posts:

OliPolly · 02/04/2011 12:28

I am a Christian, I would be offended if someone burnt the bible - I wouldn't go ahead and behead people either - thats just wrong on so many levels.

No one is supporting the extremists who have killed and ionjured people. At the same time, those who burnt the Koran knew what they were doing and will have guilty consciences.

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 12:25

Evenless so what's the difference between a flag and a book?

OP posts:

EvenLessNarkyPuffin · 02/04/2011 12:21

The Americans are idiotic extremists. They burnt a book. It's words on paper. I don't want to live in a world where burning a book is punishable by law.

OliPolly · 02/04/2011 12:19

The pastor is actually an extremist himself.

meditrina · 02/04/2011 12:12

There are huge riots and further deaths in Kandahar today because of this.

The pastor must have known he was being provocative. I hope he can live with his conscience about his actions.

Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 12:04

Doubtless it will have inspired others. That's just the way it goes. One person organises a peaceful protest march against the war in Iraq, someone else uses the march as an opportunity for a punch-up, another thinks disagreeing with the war in Iraq gives them the excuse to blow themselves and hundreds of others up on a tube train.... It's the price we pay for a free society. If everyone who was about to say something inflammatory that might cause a negative reaction was swiftly dispatched to a prison by the Thought Police and quietly executed then we'd be like China.... BTW that would be a bad thing.

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:59

I guess if American's aren't bothered by the sentiments it gives off and think his actions were merely "offensive" rather than "inciting hatred" then Americans ultimately have to deal with that opinion and the reactions of the world to that opinion. Let's all hope he hasn't inspired anyone to do something similar to "offend" anyone else.

OP posts:

Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:54

The people in this case were deliberately not given air-time in mainstream broadcast media but their inflammator actions were posted on YouTube or wherever.... that's the freedom of information we all hold so dear. Because of the riot, they're on the news broadcasts spouting their rubbish, but most of the responsible news stations are cutting the video short before the actual book-burning. They are being censored as much as is reasonable but, if we go down the route of shutting up people with unpopular but legal opinions we are no better than the tyrants and despots we claim to despise so much.

Extremists with their own agendas will use any excuse to justify their actions. There are specific laws about what constitutes the incitement of hatred and, if the Americans were to ignore them and shove people in prison simply for being offensive, there would be an outcry.

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:42

chibi I'm not absolving the murderers, merely asking what will happen to the antagonists.

OP posts:

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:38

It's the further anti-Americanism it's inspired that I would worry about. It's all very well sane, logical people agreeing that what he did was stupid and aggravating the situation, but we all know that a little of what he did will linger in their minds whenever they hear "American". It's almost as if this guy has turned on his own Country and yet there is no deterrent for people not to follow suit. They get their own media hype, 15 mins of fame and everything! To some people that draw will be obvious. I'm not saying that the reaction was right or just or anything of the sort, just that it was obviously going to happen. Just as obviously as another Koran is going to be burnt and the whole cycle will start again.

OP posts:

Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:33

If we locked people up for 'inspiring anti-American feeling' the list of convicts would be a long one starting with George W Bush etc., etc "I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"... is a principle Americans and other supporters of free speech hold dear.

chibi · 02/04/2011 09:32

i really object to this - it seems to absolve the murderers of culpability, if only they hadn't been goaded etc.

the responsibility for these murders lies with the murderers, not with some fringe group who might have pissed them off

i can understand being careful with foreign policy, and thinking about the consequences of the actions of a nation state, but the us is a nation of what 400 million people - chances are someone is doing something that may be offensive to someone somewhere at any given time

it is ridiculous to hold this group responsible

lionheart · 02/04/2011 09:29

I wonder if 'inciting religious hatred' would cover something like this. Perhaps it depends on what was said when the book was burned?

Chil1234 · 02/04/2011 09:29

YABU It's easy for a crowd to be whipped up to hysteria. Apparently, they were told there had been hundreds of Korans burned... The Americans doing the book-burning are being stupid, inflammatory and irresponsible but they are not 'responsible' for someone else's actions as a result.

To be guilty of inciting religious hatred the book-burners would have had to include something specific like 'we think you should all go out and attack muslims' in their speeches.

Fab123 · 02/04/2011 09:26

chibi I'm not saying anything about chopping heads off ! I don't understand why he can't get some penalty or prison sentence for inspiring anti-American feeling leading to loss of life.
I'm not even American but it seems odd that no one is actually punishing this guy at all. So what is to stop all the other gun toting crazies over there from bringing a whole new momentum to this?

OP posts:

sassyTHEFIRST · 02/04/2011 09:23

Would it be illegal in Uk though - "inciting religious hatred" ?

Fucking stupid, whatever else it may have been.

chibi · 02/04/2011 09:22

well these murderers pissed me off and offended me - whose head shall i chop off then - according to you, i am entitled

ps normal people do not murder others as a result of being offended, however gravely

hth

Unflip

1 2

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.