To ask whether or not people here believe in homeopathy?

[DaisyLovesMetronidazole]

I don't at all.

However, I'm not out for a bunfight!

Just curious, as was surprised by the response of a certain group to this question today.

Himalaya: what is so difficult to understand by "homeopathy doesn't work by regression to the mean".

Not only does homeopathy not work by regression to the mean (you claimed it does) -- nothing "works" by regression to the mean. Drugs don't work by regression to the mean, though it will feature in studies of pharmaceutical products to. Nothing works by it, it's just something that has to be accounted for in studies.

It is meaningless to point out regression to the mean if you are comparing studies of homeopathic products and pharmaceutical products. They all contain regression to the mean, but none of the drugs or remedies or anything "work" by regression to the mean.

This is all very obvious indeed and shouldn't need pointing out.

To the extent to which homeopathic remedies have an effect, it will be by placebo. I said all of this.

I think it's worth pointing out to anyone reading that you just made up those figures about the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies.

I'm not sure what point you might be trying to make to me, in particular, when you say the homeopathic remedy may work no better than the placebo.

Well -- quite

Himalaya: this is what I assumed you withdrew when you accepted that placebo can have a real effect on the physiology of the body.

^Gooseberrybushes - "Unless you are denying placebo effect completely in homeopathy, then false correlation does not apply."

No that's just not true. Do you understand that?^

Sorry - this is getting confusing

Himalaya: this is what I assumed you withdrew when you accepted that placebo can have a real effect on the physiology of the body.

Gooseberrybushes - "Unless you are denying placebo effect completely in homeopathy, then false correlation does not apply."

No that's just not true. Do you understand that?

"However, I do believe that there is evidence that is largely ignored to show that Homeopathy works"

No there isn't, and that's a fact. No belief needed.

Everyone should be aware that the main parameter of this debate is that homeopathic 'remedies' are not clinically effective and will never work. The premise underpinning it is not just flawed but is wrong.

As I said earlier a homeopathic 'remedy' can not and will not ever clinically treat any medical condition.

We might as well be discussing the effectiveness of carrying a toad under ones armpit or painting red crosses on our doors.

Anyway, I would like to ask the homeopaths again about what happens when the labels drop off your bottles/boxes....how do you distinguish between your potions?

Presumably the potions remember what bottles they came from?

Seeker, you are funny lady!

There is a complete and comprehensive refusal to move on to consider the value of the placebo effect of homeopathy. It's actually quite a difficult question. So much easier to avoid it. So much easier to talk about diluted semen.

Gooseberry, the value of the placebo effect of homeopathy is a strawman, you might as well talk about the value of the placebo effect of wine, gin or chocolate (all of which have active ingredients)

The premise of homeopathy is wrong. Why are you refusing to debate the fundamental wrongness of homeopathy and why are you putting up strawmen wrt to placebo?

If it is the placebo effect that you are interested in, why talk about homeopathy at all?

Homeopathy - diluting things many many times with special rituals and claiming that you need to use something that causes similar symptoms in order to cure a disease that produces those symptoms - is bollocks.

The placebo effect is interesting, but I will not take seriously anyone who claims that homeopathy works. They are fools or liars.

If you want to harness the value of placebo to treat people I am right behind you. "Here is a sugar pill. It is a pill made of sugar. It has no active ingredients. However, we have seen that taking pills like this often makes people with your condition feel better. If you take it, you might feel better. It has no side-effects, so at least you won't feel worse."

Gooseberry you must be quite worn out now :)

The placebo effect is all good and lovely until someone doesn't get necessary medical attention.

Lots of people here are saying that any decent homeopath will refer you on. However, a homeopath may not recognise some symptoms and will not have access to diagnostic tests or te ability to read them.

Whether or not they study the same stuff as first year medical students is irrelevant. First med does not qualify someone to be a doctor or to know when medical attention is indicated.

Yes, the placebo effect is great to en extent.

An extent, I mean.

And I agree with Trillian. We can perfectly adequately discuss the placebo effect outside the context of homeopathy.

I agree with Daisy - any placebo-giving-out practitioners should be like NHS Direct with a checklist that ends up pointing at one of the following:
"call an ambulance"
"go to A&E (but you can make your own way there)"
"make an appointment to see your GP"
"there's nothing wrong with you that won't get better on its own, so drink plenty of fluids and have a placebo"

Alistron -- I'm not

The placebo effect makes homeopathy valuable. I've never said anything else on this thread.

Homeopathy is an effective, cost-effective and side-effect free delivery system for placebo which functions extremely well.

Don't you agree?

Allegedly following the same training as a first year med student hardly inspires confidence does it? What about the other 4 years and the clinical training?!!

Yes, fancy shaking of water and being paid to listen really makes up for that deficit doesn't it?

Homeopathy does work, alistron, and for some specific complaints it works as well, cheaper and with fewer side effects than any conventional medicine. There is no good evidence that it works better than convincingly administered Smarties, but then Smarties do work really well for some things.

Gooseberry, I don't agree. It's not cost effective to the end user and the accepting of the 'homeopathic principle' is damaging to science.

I'd rather see people being given sugar pills TBH.

Daisy -- your complaint doesn't stand up against the many, many examples of conventional medical error, neglect, failure, damage, and so on and so forth.

I suppose most of you would like the state to have control of a placebo delivery system?

Homeopathy doesn't work. The placebo effect is not a validation of homeopathy.

Like I said earlier toads under armpits etc...

Alistron, exactly! First med is nearly all anatomy and physiology. It's a great foundation, but it doesn't make you a doctor. It gets you 20% of the way there at a push.

I don't agree at all, because they don't market it as a placebo so all by giving out homeopathy you are just peddling lies.

Placebos have a value. Homeopathy has none.

Gooseberry, your argument has nothing to do with anything I said.

"damaging to science".. -- far more on the other side of the coin is "damaging to science", and I'll put improvements to health over the image of "science" any day

unfortunately without the belief placebo does not work as well -- some ambiguity may be tolerated, but not much

And it's certainly more cost effective than the litany of errors, side effects, mistakes and mendacity on the "other side".

If you're worried about cost effectiveness, what do you think about that?

Placebos depend on lies and deception. Transfer it to your GP and he or she will engage in the same mendacity.