To ask whether or not people here believe in homeopathy?

[DaisyLovesMetronidazole]

I don't at all.

However, I'm not out for a bunfight!

Just curious, as was surprised by the response of a certain group to this question today.

An article explaining why homeopathy is scientifically implausible... i.e. why it can't possibly work link. It's a bit more sciencey but not too much.

Thanks nocake will look later :)

Actually Gooseberrybushes the placebo effect is not that complex and unerstanding how it works is key to understanding one of the reasons why homeopathy 'seems' to work. There have been studies done that show patients markedly improving even when they've been clearly told they've only been given a placebo. Taking pills to treat ilness is so ingrained in our culture that the very act of swallowing one, even one with no active ingredient, can begin to make a patient feel better.

Torridon: link to those studies -- the one I have seen has a clear basis in deception although it claims not to.

It seems too complex for some on here: who think it's all "in the mind". That is, to do with perception of symptoms, rather than physiological change.

Still you haven't withdrawn that you think it's ridiculous to criticise conventional medicine at all.

That makes your opinion unbalanced and less important.

And if you look at the Lancet website (I think -- might be a different one but definitely not imaquack.com) you will see placebo effect described as "little understood".

So you are wrong to say it isn't complex.

If you can explain now how a mental state of belief affects the body phsyiologically that would be marvellous.

Gooseberrybushes I don't see any more point engaging with you now that you've dismissed my opinion as unimportant.

doley I'm gladdened that you're equally apalled about homeopaths treating AIDS victims but it does beg the question: what's the cut off point? At what point does someone become so ill that homeopathy can be ruled out as a cure even by those who believe in it?

Of course you don't -- run away when it gets tough.

Of course you could always acknowledge that it's not ridiculous to accept the flaws and problems of conventional medicine.

You could always try to explain why, if it isn't that complex, the belief that something will work, will make it work.

But really, I don't think you can do either of those things, especially the second. Because if you could, given your tone, you certainly would.

Why so arsey, Goose? You aren't Jeremy Paxman, you know. Or maybe you are. Didn't he write to Marks and Spencers complaining that his underpants were too tight? Could explain a lot.

Oh dear.. asking a few difficult questions seems to upset you more than people saying bollocks, woo, idiots, idiocy, iq of 65, have you disconnected your brain blah blah blah. Which, of course, aren't arsey in the least

Seriously, Torridon's made a series of claims which don't stand up. That placebo doesn't have to be deceptive, that it's ridiculous to note the flaws of conventional medicine, and that placebo is not a complex effect.

Now she's asked to stand them up, she can't. Worth noting.

Gooseberrybushes The reason I don't want to engage with you is that your attitude is very aggressive and accusatory (I'm aware of the massive irony in telling you this). I said I found the attacks on conventional medicine ridiculous, not that I believe it to be flawless. That's quite a difference.

I don't give a stuff if people want to take sugar pills to make themselves feel better if that's what works for them. Knock yourself out. But when homeopaths start interfering in third world countries it stops being so harmless and becomes actively dangerous. I think it's all done with the best of intentions but we all know where that leads.

You seem to be getting yourself quite worked up there Gooseberrybushes . Have you tried Rescue Remedy?

I'm not remotely upset, and I haven't paid that much attention to the thread to remember your questions, Goose. I'm just pointing out that you are coming across as rather shrill and unnecessarily confrontational. It's only a messageboard, not Abu Ghraib.

What attacks on conventional medicine? The only "attacks" have been to point out the flaws -- which you acknowledge. So what, exactly, is ridiculous? You have created a straw man.

There is an irony. This tone only comes out with me in response to the appalling rudeness and dismissiveness, the sneering and the name-calling.

It is possible to say you believe someone is wrong, without calling them an idiot. You are certainly happy to debate on the same side as people being aggressive and accusatory, without criticising them.

If you could stand up any of your points above, that would be great. This is an excuse not to.

And yet you didn't feel the need to point that out earlier Bof? You could always say it now.

Torridon: do try to stop changing the subject. And I don't use homeopathy.

or Bach's or the other Reiki, or anything like that.

I just don't think people who do are idiots, or ridiculous, or have an IQ of 65, or dumb. And I think very little of people who call them that.

FFS Every time the subject of Homeopathy comes up on MN, it's the same- the believers end up defending themselves, while getting dissed as idiots..

Each time i am reminded of the science versus philosophy debate..famously illustrated by the question 'If a tree falls in a forest,and noone hears it does i make a sound?'.

The scientists answer No,as there is noone to hear it, it therefore cannot be proven.

Philosophers question this answer saying -If men ceased to exist sound would continue to travel,and the tree would still fall to earth in the same way regardless ..

To base everything you believe in purely on science,and whether it has been proven, is idiotic IMO.

I agree with Gooseberry.

I don't think people who believe in homeopathy are idiots either and if you can find a post where I said they were I'd be very grateful.

Absolute Tosh and Nonsense! - Homeopathy that is.

Why thank you except for your idiot thing at the end.

People know what they know, they do what they do based on their experiences, knowledge of their own bodies and their children, word of mouth, acknowledged ignorance, faith, trust, for all sorts of reasons.

The horrible sneering that a group of people engage in, because they imagine themselves so much more intelligent, is not a pretty sight.

buttonmooncup Thu 31-Mar-11 21:44:05 northerngirl - the problem is that we do know how it works and it is pure placebo effect and they know it. If the nhs funded any other placebo medications it would be considered dishonest.

If it was truly a placebo effect, then my god, it's a good one - I was on steroids, nasal sprays, anti-histamines, eye drops, drugs to counteract the side effects of the steroids.... And this went on for years, not just in the summer but from April till around Sept. I couldn't go outside, all my windows needed to be sealed with tape. My pets being outside set off my allergies. I couldn't even hang clothes up outside to dry. I've been in areas with really high pollen counts where people who rarely get hayfever get itchy eyes, sneezing etc. and I've been fine since the treatment. What I'm saying is: I had a medically diagnosed problem, and it hasn't come back despite being in situations where mere "mind over matter" just wouldn't solve it.

And the NHS does prescribe placebo medications - think of all the times when you take your kids to the doctor and they advise bed rest, plenty of fluids and paracetamol. That's the reassurance you are looking for, but wouldn't believe when you read it on the back of the Calpol bottle. It's the same thing - it costs a fortune to "prescribe" but actually has little positive effect. Homeopathic drugs seem to have a very real positive effect for some illnesses, and yet I've never heard of them being available on the NHS.

I don't think it really should be available on the NHS either - when you added together the cost of all the different prescriptions I took for 6 months a year, the cost of the treatment was about the same as one summer of misery. I'm now definitely up on the deal since I've not had any problems for around 9 years.

As I said, I'm a cynic - I don't necessarily care how it works or why, but I'm telling you that it works in very real medical terms based on my experience.

Torridon: I don't think you did.

Anyhow: if you could explain, for example, northerngirl's experience?

There was another poster with a friend with thyroid issues.

These are not complex apparently.

You are going to have to row back on that one, you know.