To ask whether or not people here believe in homeopathy?

[DaisyLovesMetronidazole]

I don't at all.

However, I'm not out for a bunfight!

Just curious, as was surprised by the response of a certain group to this question today.

Well, I always thought homoeopathy anecdotes were actually anecdotes detailing the placebo effect. However, after Want2bSupermum 's post, on Thu 31-Mar-11 21:39:28 (page 3), who recounts having an allergic reaction to a homoeopathic preparation, I'm wondering if many homoeopathic remedies are actually contaminated with detectable quantities of substances that aren't meant to be there. And it's perhaps the effect of those contaminants that's curing people!

So, homoeopathic treatment is even worse than I thought- it's supposed to be just (expensive) clean water that once had a trace of [whatever] in it. Apparently it's not even that. It could have all sorts of other materials in it!

The thing is, when people quote figures saying that x% of licensed drugs only work on x% of the population, as if that were somehow a vindication of any other baseless and largely ineffective complementary medicine - this is a well-known phenomenon. As in, well-known by scientists and researchers, who are currently pumping millions of $/£ into trying to discover if a person's genetic make-up (for example) can determine whether they will respond to treatment a or treatment b.

The idea that science knows everything, but is somehow still crap is really damaging. Research is constantly being done and there will be further improvement and refinement of treatments. If your take on it is 'oh but these doctors don't know half as much as they think they do' then you are simply wrong - they know full well that they don't know it all, but at least they are trying to further their knowledge, which is a whole lot better than throwing their hands up and putting their faith in a pill with nothing in it.

Homeopathy also has side effects (according to homeopaths). Exacerbated symptoms after taking the remedy are explained away as "showing it's working" - because toxins are leaving the body or some such.

Or is it the nocebo effect? If you're told that something is likely to harm you (eg your homeopath tells you your symptoms are likely to get worse after taking the remedy prescribed) then your amazing brain can accomplish that just as well as it can work with a placebo.

So is that ethical? To induce illness in your patients by telling them that they're going to get worse before they get better? Or do homeopaths get off the hook because they genuinely believe that there's a mechanism behind what they're doing and it's not a placebo?

I almost went for a degree in herbalism. I got well and truly put off when I realised that no fucker could tell the difference between plant-based chemicals used as medicines, and utter bollocks. The number of people who started talking to me about homoeopathy and essential oils... (Then tbh I worked out that most of the claims made for herbal medicines were pretty weak, so I decided not to do it.)

Rockinhippy - as stillfrazzled said it would only be worth looking for scientific explanations of the homeopathic effect if the homeopathic effect had reliably been shown to exist.

Its like saying that the only reason modern science doesn't recognize theories of ether, philostogen and vital essence is because it hasn't advanced enough (rather than it ruled them out years ago).

Homeopathy has been around for 200 years now, and in that time it has not generated 1 bit of science grade evidence that it works better than placebo (i.e. a robust meta-study of double-blind studies).

What would be the bit of scientific break-through you would be looking for to show that homeopathy really does work better than placebo, but that this effect somehow disapears when you put it in a study that robustly compares its performance with a placebo.

no rockinhippy its not true for anyone, its not possible, like I said, elementary laws of physics entirely preclude homeopathy having any chance of doing what woo-peddlars purport it to.

You can't fly. I can't walk through walls. We don't have x-ray vision. And homepathy does not and cannot work at all.

Capisce?

Someone once asked my why homoeopathy needed to be tested scientifically.
"Maybe they just don't want to be part of the system...." he shrugged.
In a way you can't argue with that attitude, it's so clear that some people are never going to get it.

I couldn't begin to defend it on scientific grounds, but personally I have a homeopath and find it effective for period pains/PMS and jet lag. I also know people who use it for their babies/kids and describe it as working like 'magic'. Isn't it also used on racehorses? That's a big business, serious money, and I don't think trainers/owners would bugger about with it if they didn't see results.

I don't know if it 'works' as such or it's the placebo effect and/or the fact that you spend an hour talking to someone who is engaged and supportive, but frankly who cares if you get results?

See, I got this the other day. I explained there was feck all in it, but was told "well. it works for me". No, sorry you just think it does.

That's how the money is being made.

not read entire thread - but just wanted to say we used it very successfully on a DOG!! DOG had dreadful skin condition, all it's fur fell out, very scabby. Had several treatments from vet without any success - poor dog was in a bad way.

Mum went to a homeopathic chemist in desperation really (was our local chemist in NZ - this is in the 80's), and she was given a remedy which we started dog on straight away. Within a week there was an improvement and after 2 weeks all the scabbing had gone, and then all the fur grew back. Clearly no psychological effect on the dog - she simply responded amazingly well to the treatment where other treatments failed.

I had arnica ready to take after birth of DD but didn't need it as I wasn't sore.

re the argument that homeopathy works because of the placebo effect, if this is the case, don't you think that is even more amazing than homeopathy itself working???? I.e. the mind cures the body, rather than hard core/expensive drugs that often have side effects. If anything the placebo effect cures are what we really need to be researching!

well the placebo effect is working for you, not the sugar pills IYSWIM.

There's also a Weleda homeopathic ointment for burns that's the only thing I've ever found to have any effect on sunburn. When I went travelling with two resolutely sceptical friends, and both of them got badly sunburnt, they fought like rabid dogs over the remains of my tube of Combudoron, despite refusing to believe that homeopathy works

yes, the placebo effect is amazing, we have covered that.

Away and read Bad Science.

It can even work if you know it's a placebo, how cool is that?

what else is in the ointment?? nice soothing things perhaps? ;)

HipHopopotomus - if you read the thread then you'll find some links about regression to the mean and confirmation bias which might help to explain why homeopathy could seem to have an effect on animals and babies.

It's simplistic to say that homeopathy = placebo effect.

I do think that fairycake & OTManatee* make good points, the mind is a very powerful healing tool & if that is what the disbelievers see as placebo effect then I too am happy to go along with that & would take it a step further, we are creatures of mind, body & spirit & any true healing needs to take place on all levels.

I don't however think that seeing anyone who has a different understanding/belief system/experience to yourself as "Dummies" is a particularly intelligent open minded approach to ANYTHING & in my experience "truly" intelligent people, are clever enough to keep an open mind

I'm not however some airy fairy bimbo who believes anything I am told, or believe everyone who say's they can/are actually tells the truth - there ARE a lot of charlatans out there in all fields, & no doubt that includes Homeopathy too, I am what is probably best described as an open minded sceptic

but I've been lucky enough to travel widely, & have experienced a lot of things that are just NOT explainable by science alone, not yet with our understanding of science at least, & who's to say that EVERYTHING has to come under scientific rules to be real/factual anyway, maybe by placing that boundary on things we do ourselves no real favours at all??

Different subject, but one probably even more controversial for anyone with a closed mind & needing scientific proof in order to believe- REIKI

Many years ago, after a bad time personally, major busy at work & just plain stress, just too much going on I was persuaded to go away on a break with a friend, to one of these hippy dippy retreat places, it was mostly a pampering thing, with detox & a few therapies thrown in, most probably acceptable in scientific terms, such as yoga & though always happy to keep an open mind, I was very sceptical over some of it, you booked your chosen therapies the day before - lists put up of who & where & added your name

on one occasion I had a couple of hours to kill, & the ONLY therapy left was Rieki - I was very sceptical, but it wasn't going to cost me anything, so thought why not, it would at least be relaxing & kill time until lunch

Anyway, I went into the room & the therapist came out from behind the screen & introduced himself, I nearly choked trying not to laugh, he was this big burly & very northern "bloke" , the last type of person I would of expected to be doing something so flaky....I did not believe in ANY shape or form, that Reiki would work, & definitely didn't believe in this "Bloke"

I had 8 months earlier had an accident that damaged an ankle & left me on crutches for 3 months, I stubbornly worked through it, & as a result it didn;t heal well & I had constant pain in it

He did his thing - which turned out to be a hands off massage of my "chakras & aura" - he hadn't asked any questions as regards what problems I had - stopped at my ankle & accurately diagnosed it as painful & damaged from a "trauma" ..he worked on it for a while, whilst I lay there trying really hard not to giggle as it was all just too daft - he then went on to stop over my kidneys, telling me I had a problem there too (news to me he worked on that & finished up telling me to drink lots of water to flush the toxins he'd dislodged away

I headed back to my room to get ready for food - noticed I'd come up in a rash over my kidney - he hadn't warned me of this - I headed back to ask him & before I could say why i was there, he piped up, don't worry, the rash is normal

Months later I collapsed & was rushed into hospital, only to have them tell me that I had kidney damage on the same side as the Reiki guy had said

My ankle never hurt again either, in fact todate, dealing with other chronic pain problems, its probably the only bit of me that never hurts.

I was so impressed by this Guy & Reiki itself, scientifically proved or not - when I gave up work, I "trained" in it myself

after my "attunement" the very first (supervised) diagnostics & treatment I ever did on a complete stranger frightened the bloody life out of me, so much so, bar little bits on myself & DD I have never used it again

What I experienced was so powerful, & so NOT of the scientific world that it shook me to my core, I accurately saw his problems in my mind & I FELT his problems as a handful of writhing snakes - they were there in my hands, so real it made me jump back & scream....with encouragement from my teacher I carried on, but was shaking like a leaf, as it wasn't anything like I had expected & speaking with the Guy afterwards - EVERYTHING I read in him was spot on - but the experience put me off for good

So yes no doubt that will sound like a load of old baloney to those of you who demand scientific proof of everything in order to believe & thats fine, I understand that, as its YOUR experience of life so far that has led you to need that - maybe that will change for you, maybe not -

but it doesn't make the rest of us dummies open to conmen -

just different life experiences that leave us more open to the idea that not everything needs to fall within scientific boundaries (as we currently know them) to be factual:)

jaggythistle, I don't care if people believe in homeopathy or not ? it's their choice, just as it's my choice to spend my hard-earned on it ? but I don't like the attitude that homeopaths are charlatans who know they're peddling something that doesn't work just to make money. Mine, at least, firmly and passionately believes in what she does. Not believing in it is one thing, but assuming that a whole body of practitioners is lying/pulling the wool over people's eyes is pretty insulting.

Homeopathy is a pile of shite. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts. In my opinion, the earth is flat.

Weleda is linked to the anthropomorphic Steiner cult, isn't it?

Interestingly, a trained homeopath would say that your Weleda cream is hokum since "genuine" homeopathic remedies have to be tailored exactly to the individual after a lengthy consultation taking into account personality and other symptoms which may not be directly related to the condition being treated (eg tendency to feel the cold, bad dreams).

Manatee, the Weleda stuff is HERBAL, not homeopathic, not at all the same thing. It actually has something in it, so it has a chance at least of working.

and hippy, being open-minded is scientific. Being so open-minded that you believe in homepathy means you've opened it so far all your common sense has fallen out. As for reiki and the like....you've veered off into total bonkersness there.

Those of you defending homoeopathy by saying it works by the placebo effect should remember that those that sell it insist that it is not placebo. Therefore you are saying that all those that sell homoeopathy are liars. I think we can agree on that, but why would you go near them if you know they can't be trusted.

Winter, I think Weleda is homeopathic rather than herbal - it has a dilution in it's stuff rather than an active ingredient.

Not according to its ingredients lists.

It's over-simplistic to say that homeopathy = placebo effect, in fact it's wrong.
My view is that only a selected (small) number of homeopathic remedies actually work on everyone, and another small number of remedies work on some people but not on others.
A lot more research is needed to find out why that is, and as someone here said, nobody can be bothered to research it properly as the numbers don't stack up, sadly
I wouldn't completely discard homeopathy if scientific treatment doesn't work, and I'm a Brain Surgeon!
I think one should be very careful about falling into either extreme. Keeping an open mind but being realistic and well documented is the way.

Very interesting post rockinhippy!