to find this article on motherhood inFURiating?

[BlooferLady]

Guardian writer in 'motherhood is hell' shock

Disclaimer: je suis TTCing. Erm, for a LONG time!

I didn't want children for years. YEARS! Was violently opposed to it And you know why? Because it looked like one long unending saga of drudgery, misery, isolation and loss of identity and self-respect (I have a large family and thus had the opportunity to observe its effects up close every 18 months or so).

We're TTCing now - hormones and a little wisdom took over, and I would very much like to be a mother. And yet here on MN and in the press I find my old terrors reinforced, and this article sums it all up. Everything I feared is true...

BUT IS IT? By the end of the article I wanted to slap the woman. She complains of her life dwindling to a miserable compressed world of perma-exhaustion, leaking breasts, nappy changes, never seeing her old friends, losing her sense of a professional life, only ever socialising with mothers and mother and toddler groups, bitterly envying women who still go to work, angry with her partner for not helping out round the house...

Someone PLEASE tell me it doesn't have to be like this. I wanted to yell at her, get out of the damn house and DO stuff you moaning bint! No-one MAKES you go to mother and toddler groups - put the creature in a sling and wander round the V&A! Let your partner do a bottle feed in the evening and go out for a boozy dinner! Do some work from home! MAKE your partner help out!

Surely there are people here on MN whose entire character isn't subsumed into the drudgery of being a mother? Who continue to be lively, interested in the larger world, engaged with their friends, interested in their career, happy in their relationships, still maintaining a sense of self and self-respect? For motherhood extends, informs, illuminates their life - doesn't effectively end it! Because if not, I don't want children. AIBU?!

hi nightsdrawing,
really interesting point about the 'pathologisation' of non-enjoyment of motherhood. It's totally true. PND does seem to be a catch- all term for any experience other than unalloyed joy. It seems amongst my mummy peer group that you are somehow allowed to talk about individual frustrations- eg not sleeping/ feeding problems etc but not to express any doubts or problems with the general experience of motherhood itself, even though I'm sure that feeling that way from time to time is completely normal even for people having a joyous time of it. And the same really doesn't apply to men
I think the original artlcle was valuable for its honesty about her experience ,and for a genuine discussion of equality when it comes to parenthood. And yes, motherhood is FAR harder than any job I've ever done.

This writer seems to say much the same as the article, but in a much better way (despite the fact her 'audience' was likely to be harsher).

And she certainly seems to be someone who might combine motherhood and other lives in the way the OP wants.

I quite liked the Guardian article - and I liked the way she included the role of fathers, and trod the path out into wider society and economic/social structures.

I thought the article AdelaofBlois linked to was interesting too, though it's focus is slightly different: she focuses more on the foundational experience of motherhood (where biology meets subjectivity and their interweaving with political and economic structures) - though the Guardian article did touch a bit on that too.

Can't understand why the Guardian writer has had so much stick, since her article seems to me to make such a small, reasonable, liberal demand: shared responsibility between both parents.

Personally, I am still reeling from the realisation that the hippy dream I grew up with (that I wouldn't be co-erced into the choice of indivudalised/privatised parenting "choice" of mother-father-parent-unit or single-parent-unit is not going to come true ; and that the "choice" seems to have boiled down to a kind of "personhood" bestowed by work (and capitalist work at that) or "mother-ness".

At least the Guardian article had a political-social-economic dimension. It seems that that element has been overlooked in a lot of comments here, which have gone straight into a personal and individual reading of the experience of motherhood. That is valid, of course, but quite at odds with what the article seems to be (tentatively) putting forwards.

Also, people seem to be demanding the impossible of this woman - that she provide the last word - the definitive summing up - of the experience of motherhood - which seems a slightly exorbitant demand.

I went to the V&A once, it was crap they didn't have a single dinosaur! Hah calls itself a museum!

Who wants to look at mouldy old dresses when next door at the NHM they have an animatronic T-Rex!

My point was simpler, that most people in all times and of all genders know constant housework and childcare and not much else is very b oring and low grade so romans outsourced it to slaves, our Medieval ancestors shipped children eveno ff to wet nurses, our Victorian ancestors had over 1m servants and even the servants would leave their own children with pretty young siblings if the child survived past age 5 at all. There is nothing new in any of this. Since the dawn of time men and women have not wanted to clean up and mind chidlren 24/7 because it's dull asn ditchwater. So we either pick careers which means we can have the lovely bits or a few hours a day of it and not the bad or we marry a rich man or woman who will pay for help etc etc.

"infinitely interruptable" is a wonderful phrase, nightsdrawingin.

I realise this thread is near its end, and I'm not engaging with the OP, which is kind of bad manners (but, on the other hand, there been a lot of engagement, and I'm sure it's OK to go off elsewhere a bit now) but ...

Looking at the way many of us experience motherhood as an interruption of the self constructed in the early C21, largely though work ... it is possible surely to use that experience to reflect back on that self? And thus to use the experience of motherhood to critique the limitations of C21 self/worker identity?

I think there is a lot on this thread that points in that direction. And it suggests one way of dealing with the almost schizophrenic psychological experience of becoming a mother. One feels the loss of the selfhood, along with the gains of having stepped out of its previous limitations into another way of being. At the same time, the identity of "mother" in C21 seems to be a "remnant", a cave or something, an identity that has been passed over by the sweep of technology and time and changing economic relations.

But that, of course, is kind of illusory - it is intimately related to economic-social reality, it is part of reality. and we have a strong sense, as women, that it could be more comfortable, and more generous as an experience, gifting us a stronger feeling of self-worth, and value, than even that "previous" sense of self given through (paid) work.

A lot of the above is v. indebted to Adrienne Rich.

Xenia - I find that fascinating and have been thinking about that this morning (prompted by the Guardian article).

One thought that came to me is that a lot of repetitive tasks (the ones that disappear/are undone/constantly need to be redone) are just depressing because of that - but then I thought that, bloody hell, that's life - what could be more damn tedious than breathing. so it occurred to me that a lot of dull, etc, tasks, are simply not conceptualised as such - and that we overlook a lot of the tedium in supposed "prestige, "creative" occupations. And also the fact that dull, grinding repetition is part and parcel of the things that bring us joy.

My example would be something like writing, thinking, or yoga. I experience actual, physical joy in the repetition of yoga.

So ... I then got to wondering about how it is we conceptualise the differene between work and leisure, and was wondering if there is something going on there ....

Anyway, just thinkign aloud ...

But I think you are right that there is something quite interesting going on in the experience of those maintenance-of-another, low-status, repetitive tasks in the modern "shock" of motherhood.

Adelaofblois, that's a great article - thanks for posting the link. It articulates quite a lot of the points I wanted to make.

I found the Guardian article annoying: she makes some really valuable points about the way the world is structured to force women into being primary carers and men into being breadwinners, but they get lost among the "oh well it's all our own fault because we want men to do it our way or not at all" crap. Frankly, if you're idiot enough to stop your partner changing a nappy because "he's doing it all wrong", you pretty well deserve to end up changing all the nappies. DH and I are both competent adults, and we both had to learn how to look after our DS: it would be pretty insulting to him if I assumed he couldn't learn as fast as I can.

Good post, animula. I'm very conscious (and have been all my adult life) that I define myself almost entirely by what I do professionally, even though there are lots of other aspects to me. That's not by any means a bad thing, and if I were a man I don't think I'd even analyse it, but it does mean if I ever lose my job my whole sense of self is going to be shattered.

Xenia

Extrapolating what motivated people in the past is pretty extreme stuff. For most of human history the majority of people have worked on subsistence tasks-in and out of the home (and, indeed, the more precarious the subsistence the more gender balance might be achieved). For this reason being able to outsource, to take holidays, has always been a source of status, itself often vital for 'survival' or 'promotion' at higher levels of society. Whether Countess Adela of Blois may have wanted to bring up her children herself is impossible to know given the constraints of status and duty operating upon her.

Similarly, I'm not sure that the time I spent making ends meet by picking veg in East Anglian fields were some sort of wonderful escape from the domestic-it was boring, repetitive, low-paid and shite. As are the vast majority of jobs, professional and non-professional, that most people do. Singling out 'domestic work' and explaining it simply as 'dull' is a very reductive way of assessing why it is treated as it is.

The sort of analysis hinted at in the article, perhaps sort of wanted by the OP, and developed by animula strikes me as perhaps more sensible for being a little less 'do I like it, would I choose it?' Because surely, regardless of whether we love it or loathe it, would or can work around it personally or domestically, all of us (of all genders, all ages, parents or not) have an interest in understanding and criticising what 'motherhood' and 'parenthood' entail at the moment. Cos it ain't pretty for many.....

Thanks for answering me ruth and apologies for not seeing your name and recognising it, even after following the thread carefully. I should look more carefully at people's usernames. Maybe it's just people's perceptions of the phrase "moaning bint" which is different - I see that and see it as a bit of a dig, but nothing too bad. I can see how someone might see it differently however.

Great post skater.

I still think, Xenia, that you are looking at things too simplistically. Yes, almost everyone would like to have in-house help with childcare and housework but for many, indeed most people, it's just not possible. And this isn't a simple choice between working at Asda or being a City lawyer.

Personally, and on a bit of a tangent, I don't think think people should have to apologise for not minding housework or even enjoying it sometimes. When visiting the parents the other day, I was so startled when I saw my mum cleaning the sink thoroughly (she has never really been one for housework) that I said "sink looks nice and clean" or something. There was a rush of reasons such as "Oh I had nothing else to do" etc. Sometimes it's nice to make something sparkle and I don't speak as someone who is deficient in intelligence. I can quite understand of course, that feeling like you have to do it all the time with no one helping you, must be bloody tedious though.

I rarely do anything for myself, have much less money (because of childcare), struggle to keep my head above water at work, rarely see my friends, get lonely, am always tired, feel frumpy most of the time, have a horrible crepey tummy from pregnancy. The first three months were really hard and the second three months were not much better. Childbirth was a deeply awful experience and what I went through was just at the baddish end of the normal scale.

But however bad all of that is/was, you can't begin to imagine how fantastic it is to have a little person in your life. It totally and utterly compensates for all the rest of it and for me, it really is as simple as that

I think one of the things that helped me enjoy it was "What Mothers Do: Especially When it Looks Like Nothing" by Naomi Stadlen. A lot of the book is very annoying (she makes loud statements about making no judgments but is clearly anti-working Mums) and I got too annoyed to finish it but the thing that really helped me was her explanation of how slowing your life down, changing your perspective, etc etc are part of adapting to motherhood. It really helped make me enjoy the moment and not see the boring drudgery as boring drudgery. Now I'm a City lawyer three days a week and the rest of the week I do things like go shopping with my DS (he's 18mo) and we "woof" and "meiow" at the pics on the pet food tins and we sing songs and do the actions as we walk along the pavement and I couldn't care less if people think I'm weird/bonkers It's just amazing watching them grow and learn and pick things up.

Good luck with TTC and when your little one arrives, I hope you love it too.

Oh I got distracted in the middle of writing my post and in the meantime the thread has got much more philosophical and clever ... My woofing and meiowing looks a bit silly now [blushes]

I liked your post, Chestnut :)

I liked Chestnut's post too. Do the same, to odd looks (one comment I'll always remember was 'well, they'll either be geniuses or mad!).

I think what bothers me, though, is that Chestnut has to compartmentalise her life to cope. I don't know what city lawyering is like, but professions I've worked in do a lot of business 'unprofessionally'-serious chats in a pub interwoven with gossip, comments on the attractiveness of male bar staff, the X-factor, the quality of wine and cheese on offer etc. But never parenting, especially not from women who fear for their status if they look like 'mums'.

And that's a shame, because there is nothing any more or less revealing or irrelevant about kids and parenting than anny of those other things.

I want to walk round a supermarket with a colleague, discussing professional matters, but also stopping sometimes to woof or meow or count eggs. But I daren't....

I think you should try it Adela

I really like the article. Being a mum is bloody hard. And we are i thinking general expected to be the primary career even if dp is around. So I'm in praise. Also nice to see that even lovely middle class Guardian journos ain't perfect yummy mummys

I don't necessarily disagree with much of the article, but I did disagree with some of the OP. I suspect many of the other respondents are the same.

The writer of the article is the one equating motherhood with inferior female status, Dittany. It has repeatedly been said one this thread that if you aren't married to a sexist pig there is no reason why that should be the case.

it's nothing to do with being a sexist pig. It#s to do with biology and the way maternity/paternity leave works. Women DO end up doing extra in most cases even with the best hands on dad IMO.

Society makes it like this.

Rubbish. Society doesn't do anything of the sort. Society doesn't prevent men from changing nappies, loading the dishwasher or recognising the pile of ironing as a task requiring doing by an adult human being.

Once a baby is born the only task biology requires a mother for over a father is breastfeeding, and even a BF baby can have expressed breastmilk administered by Uncle Tom Cobbly if necessary.

As for maternity leave, until not so long ago women only got a few weeks off. It was increased because women wanted longer because short maternity leave forced them back to work (or to resign) before they were ready. Now apparently long maternity leave is bad because it is to blame for inequalities in the home.

If we carry on vacilating like this "society" may decide women don't know what they want.

ugh... a load of women saying how pleasurable it is to do dull housework stuff .. that's so anti femniists. If it's such fun let me do it whilst I read a book. They can achieve their zen like calm as they clean up baby sick for teh nth time a day.

My point is like the original article. No one anywhere really wants to do all this stuff 24/7. Now it might be that some women were silly enough to pick full careers which earn peanuts but more fool them if they did and in contrast to the factory production line the freedom of b eing home with a child, the power over your time and life without a boss getting at you all day might be a lesser of two evils but very few women with wealth whether of their own or theirs husbands in our or any other culture "choose" to do all the cleaning and childcare. Even if they are housewives if there are funds they do tend to have help of some kind adn that's because the jobs can be pretty tedious.

Now I do deliberately make sure I do some mundane jobs in limited portions as that does most of us a lot of good, male or female as human beings and all full time working parents whatever their gender so some but why take on all of it just because you have a vagina unlesss you really have to and women never have by choice.

Most parents get huge pleasure out of being with their children of all ages. I certainly do but we want a balanced life, it's part of being an adult human being. Far far too many accept sexist situations.

if you take 2 weeks holiday as your maternity period off then you do not build up sexist patterns at home and you never get into that position of someone saying I am male therefore I do not do XYZ or I am female you're male so have no clue how to change the baby. Now only I breastfed and I loved it but most else can be evenly shared and I would hope at the very least Guardian readers (I am not one) would have the sense not to enable sexism at home and before they even get involved with a man clear these things in the open. We talked about before we got married who would look after the children . I would not have tolerated a day of sexism at home. Many women are the same but some are much to weak and need do a lot better at resisting sexism.

but still, even if only a few weeks maternity leave sets women up as the main carer which creates a status quo which is hard to change once/if a woman returns to work. That's the crux of the article.

women are the ones most likely to go back part time, the ones most likely to take time off because their children are ill etc.

I did also mention paternity leave... which could do with being longer or shared.