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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to start a baby sing and sign class without any formal training or qualifications?

77 replies

CourseyoucanMalcolm · 25/03/2011 07:31

I did various singing and signing classes with both my two so am quite familiar with how it works, and know lots and lots of signs.

Now I am stuck thousands of miles from UK with no way of doing a training course, and nothing to do with my mornings.

I was thinking of setting up a little sing and baby signing group. I would plan my classes and make sure I knew all the signs connected to the topic in advance. And I would get hold of a big book to look up anything I didn't know.

I wouldn't be offering Makaton or BSL or ASL classes, just a little singsong and a few signs so your baby could communicate.

Do you think that would be okay?

OP posts:
anonacfr · 25/03/2011 11:47

I would go but wouldn't want to pay for it.

You'd have to make it really clear that it is an informal playgroup style playdate with some teaching involved.
As SGM says if people are aware that you have no qualifications then fine but if I paid for a playgroup I would want to make sure if was run by someone with official qualifications and with proper insurance in case anything happened.

As an example my local community centre offers toddler yoga classes run by a properly qualified yoga instructor. She charges 5 pounds a session. I would be mightily pissed off if I paid that but found out afterwards that the class was run by a mum who happened to have taken her own kids to a yoga class in the past.

valiumredhead · 25/03/2011 11:48

What stewie said - OP will need insurance.

anonacfr · 25/03/2011 11:49

Forgot to ask- what are you planning on charging?

Original poster
CourseyoucanMalcolm · 25/03/2011 12:31

I have absolutely no intention of advertising under false pretences. Not my intention to hoodwink anyone :).

As I said in my OP I am not in the UK. There is no training or bsl courses or anything like that here.

I am finding this thread very interesting. Particularly the links to criticism of baby signing.

I would be running it from my home.

In fact, my first thought was to run a sing and story group. But I enjoyed signing with my two, and I thought other people might enjoy it too. I also don't envisage doing classes for much older than about 2. I am really not setting myself up as a signing teacher. More a low-key singing group where we can encorporate the useful baby signs for hungry / full / nappy / milk / drink / more / hurt etc. And the animal ones are fun too, and food ones, and colours - but I know now that this approach is not at all popular with some people. Very interesting.

Perhaps I should call it a baby 'sing and jingle' sort of group, and then just include a line in the ad about learning some baby signs too.

I won't make much money from this either - will probably charge a pound a session to cover a cup of orange juice and a biscuit at the end?

Oh dear - I was so pleased with the idea and now I think it's probably completely crap. Am having rather a tearful day so perhaps I'll log off and come back tomorrow with a fresh head. I just feel so fucking useless, and I thought this might be something I could do.

OP posts:
anonacfr · 25/03/2011 12:59

Don't get upset!
It is a good idea and if you present it the way you described- as a little sing and story with signing incorporated then it sounds great. It would be a nice way to meet other mums and charging for juice/biscuit etc is perfectly reasonable.
Alternatively (if there are paying issues) then you could always get a roster of mums bringing snacks for the group- that's what we do at ours.

It sounded originally that you were planning on starting a business which is immediately a trickier proposition.

I think your idea sounds fab!

valiumredhead · 25/03/2011 13:00

I think if you do it as you suggested, a sing and jingle group etc it will be fine. Just check about insurance as it IS important.

I am itching to start a thread about my thoughts on baby signing Grin but am pretty sure I'd get flamed [ grin]

Hope you have a better day tomorrow :)

MadamDeathstare · 25/03/2011 13:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cornflakegirl · 25/03/2011 13:14

My DH did baby signing classes with DS1 - don't think DS1 ever really learned any signs, but they both had a good time. I'd be surprised if the teacher had any formal qualifications - and I would also be of the opinion that if you've taken a couple of children to sing and sign and practised signs with them at home, that's probably more worthwhile than a short training course. (Don't know what sort of training courses people would normally do though.)

As long as you make it clear that you're teaching baby signing and not BSL / Makaton, what on earth does it matter? Go for it, and charge a proper fee too - people value stuff more if they've had to pay for it.

cazza40 · 25/03/2011 13:15

Good idea but you need proper insurance and a full crb also you would need to tell the council. You should also be clear with the mums that you have no formal training.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/03/2011 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

valiumredhead · 25/03/2011 13:30

I always thought baby signing was Makaton?

SnapFrakkleAndPop · 25/03/2011 13:45

Where are you, OP? Some expat types places would be fine with it, others wouldn't. Totally depends on your potential clientele.

tabulahrasa · 25/03/2011 13:47

um, I'd expect someone offering classes like that to have some sort of early years qualification tbh

I can sing nursery rhymes and look up signs on youtube myself...

Himalaya · 25/03/2011 13:48

No its a good idea don't be disheartened!

Even if you were in the UK you wouldn't need (in fact couldn't get) a CRB check because you are not being employed to do this. And as for telling the authorities, I really don't think they care that you are having some parents and children around to your house to sing songs and drink juice. Get a grip people!

I would charge a reasonable rate, comparable with other similar things in your area. If you start off selling yourself too short, it is hard to put the price up later, and you may find that you resent people not valuing your time.

I don't think charging or not charging makes a difference to the insurance question anyway. If you invite someone into your house and they break their leg on your unsafe decking etc...they can sue you, but the fact that they paid £3 for a class doesn't make a difference to that. It is up to you whether you have liability insurance before you let anyone into your house. Most people don't, and there is no requirement to have it.

I think people are making a bit of a song and dance about needing qualifications. You don't have qualifications in singing either, but it doesn't matter. People will come to your class, if they enjoy it and like what you are doing they will come back, if they don't they won't, showing them a certificate doesn't make any difference to that.

coccyx · 25/03/2011 13:50

not all baby signing is makaton , think some are based on BSL

MavisEnderby · 25/03/2011 13:51

I think you would have to make it really clear you are not Makaton or BSL trained/qualified as you may get some children that are totally reliant upon such communication methods.

FWIW i did "baby" signing with dd (sing and sign) when she was 2 (she has developmental delay and communicates with Makaton.)

We both enjoyed it:)

Good luck.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/03/2011 14:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

anonacfr · 25/03/2011 14:11

The idea is good- it was confusing at first because the OP made it sound like she wanted to start a business, not run a group from home.

She should definitely go for it, but beware that some mothers can be tricky- she needs to make sure she can't be liable for random various things that might happen that could bother some parents.

You hear the most shocking stories she just need to make sure she has her bases covered.

sausagerollmodel · 25/03/2011 14:33

Would you be doing this for a hobby/social reasons or to make money? Because if for a hobby I don't think qualifications matter because mums of babies are desperate to get out of the house and will come to anything that is free and fun! I would have gone to something like that when mine were tiny.
But if you are hiring a room you could end up being out of pocket and you could get into trouble with the council if you are charging money even if it's just to cover the cost of the room hire. You might need a special entertainments licence, ask your council about this.
If you want to do this at home you would need a large enough room for say 8 adults and 8 children, that's quite a lot of people, and hide any breakeable ornaments.
If you are planning on doing this to earn money then I don't think you can charge money without qualifications, people will expect qualifications, well I know I would. I used to take DD1 to a Presma class which was great, I even looked into doing it as a job but found it would take over a year to get qualified so didn't pursue it. I think it looks easy, yeah I can do that but there is probably more to it than meets the eye.
Sorry if that sounds a bit waffly but I thiknk it all comes down to the money, ie whether you want to make any or not!

maighdlin · 25/03/2011 14:59

what qualifications are need to sing with babies????

moomaa · 25/03/2011 16:50

I am pretty surprised at all the people that expect baby groups to be taught by people with training. A lot of things that I have been to are run by volunteers and I am sure they don't have any qualifications. I hope people don't assume the people running it do have qualifications. They do however usually have insurance, which is not that expensive. The only exception I think is things that can affect a baby's body, like yoga and swimming where I would check the situation. I don't put signing in that catergory.

FWIW I just looked at the sing and sign website and from what I can work out they just made their own up albeit based on exisiting sign languages out there.

Also FWIW a local sure start centre does sing and sign type classes and the lady that run that just picked up what she could by going to a 'proper' class.

OP I think your idea sounds great and I would love to attend if I lived near you.

littleducks · 25/03/2011 16:59

I'm a bit confused too, why do people think you need to be trained? Baby signing is not about learning another language like BSL, it is just a set of signs to make communication easier for preverbal children.

Do people think that existing baby signing classes teach makaton or BSL? The majority don't they have adapted or peicked up signs from them but doing baby signing won't enable you to communicate in BSL by any means.

mumoverseas · 25/03/2011 17:22

OP, I think it is a good idea, in fact, I did exactly the same thing 2 years ago!

I live in the Middle East and got very very bored being unable to work in my previous career so thought about what I could do.

I attended a baby signing class with DD one summer in the UK and within 5 minutes decided this was what I was going to do.

By way of background, I had done BSL levels 1 and 2 a few years before and had many deaf friends so was used to signing. I did however have to do a basic Makaton signing course (for myself, not out of necessity) as I needed to learn basic signs such as animals. Even though my signing was pretty good anyway, signs such as elephant and monkey didn't really come up in everyday conversation with my deaf friends Grin

I bought several books (as a refresher - I would point out it is not advisable to learn all signs from a book) and some music cds and started my own business.

I have been running classes for 2 years now and have students from 6 months old to 5 years old. As well as singing and signing we have a musical instrument section which goes down very well!

I charge approximately 4.50 GBP per lesson (45 mins) and most of that money is donated to the National Deaf Childrens Society

OP, please don't feel upset about any negative threads, PM me if you'd like any advice/information.

By the way, it was one of my student's parents that just informed me of this thread!

Good luck

PicaK · 25/03/2011 17:27

Good god - I just needed to get out of the house when DS1 was little. We've done baby signing at surestart and it never occurred to me to worry if they were trained or not. And we did another singing group too.

Half the time we were miming eating icecreams and going on bear hunts in the middle of winter. NOBODY is so anal they expect kids to be on the path to a qualification, surely?

Your idea is lovely. Bet it's popular too. Check out the insurance situation - but go for it non profit for a bit.

LIZS · 25/03/2011 17:42

Sorry but I think some posters are being rather naive in assuming that everyone in the UK offering a "class" for babies/preschoolers is qualified to do so. Even franchises can be operated with minimal training, no related quailfications and so can vary in standard (Tumbletots, Jo Jingles etc). Of course in practice it may differ. In UK some venues require you to have your own public liability , some don't as theirs will cover you. In some countries you can run a business from your home, such as a creche or playgroup, with no additional requirements to register or h and s. OP could well be fine to do exactly as she determines her potential attendees want.