to think that Christians do not want equal treatment, they want their views to be given a privileged in public life.

[seeker]

and that the discrimination that some Christians claim they are suggering is actually just the withdrawing of that privileged position, and the levelling of the playing fiels for people of faith and people without faith.

If the bishops that are representing the CoE are there to merely represent a part of our current culture as any other, are there also representatives of the Catholic Church, the Javohova's Whitnesses, the Mormans, and all other branches of Christianity? In that case then they must also represent the at least the other 5 major world religions that are often present in our diverse country (Jewish, Muslim, Bughist, Sikh and Hindu)?

I think this is the main reason why secularism would be the best idea in this day and age. Everyone is making out the the CoE bishops represent all Christians, when that is not true. Nor do they represent all others. So unless you allow representatives of every religion found in the country, it is morally wrong and prejudiced to give one branch special power over another.

Not true "theatomicbum*

The chief rabbi is in thehouse oflords, as is the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Muhammad Abdul Bari

Just to muddy the waters a bit more !!!

I have no religion now but was brought up in the Church of Scotland. I have a strong objection to the Church of England having the right to place 25 men into our so-scalled democratic government. The Church of England is NOT the state religion of the UK - the clue is in the name (see ANGLICAN). The Queen may be my Queen but she is not my religious leader. In an increasingly secular society it is time this anomoly was removed. If vicars, ministers, immams, etc. want to influence public affairs they are free to stand for election as an MP. Christian Democratic Party, Anyone?

I actually think other religions apart from Christianity do want "special" treatment - but not all religions. For example, I have never heard a buddhist or quaker ask for special treatment because of their religion.

They may want it, lesley - but they don't get it! Christians do.

Hatti, but do they represent all branches of Christianity? And obvious the 3 eastern religions mentioned? And, OK, so their is 1 Jewish and 1 Muslim, compared to 25 CoE Bishops? What's wrong with just one to represent them? Or is the 25:1 ratio about right for CoE vs Jewish or Muslim? Or even Christian and Muslim (since we can't really classift some of the other branches as the same)?

But, TBH, I don't think it matters which religions are in there. I don't agree with the House of Lords period since it is not democraticely elected. And I think the government should be completely secular and elected.

Looking at it from another perspective, the separation of church and state doesn't seem to have done much for the USA in terms of encouraging secularism and religious tolerance. Can you imagine an American being elected leader of either of the main parties if it was known that she or he was an atheist like Ed Millipede? I can't. And being anything other than Christian would make a presidential candidate completely unelectable.

The American separation of church and state has done little to prevent the USA bordering on theocracy in practice. In contrast, the privilege accorded in the UK to a basically un-evangelical, unassuming, liberal established C of E probably does more to ensure a largely secular government than any amount of disestablishment.

Christmas is a Christian festival, celebrated on 25th December; Yule is a Pagan festival celebrated a few days earlier. It's another myth that the one has replaced the other. They are, and always have been, separate festivals in the same way that Hannukah is a separate December festival.

The same goes for Easter and the other Christian festivals. There are other religious festivals held around the same time and all are celebrated by their respective religions. They may well share certain traditions, but that can be said of all religious festivals (flowers and plants, fireworks, food).

Agree OTheHuge (may I say, you're extremely wise today?)

Did anyone say anything abotu not celebrating Christmas? [puzzled emoticon]

People should be able to worship their imaginary space beings however they like so long as no one else is forced to join the cult and it does not affect any one else's rights.

Schools should teach all the major fairy stories about omnipotent beings in the same way Shakespeare and history are taught - factual information about the cult, its festivals, foods, beliefs.

Wearing a full face veil (such as a niqab in one brand of religion) should not be allowed in some public places in the same way helmets are not allowed in banks, post offices, some shops etc for security reasons.

Otherwise wear what bonkers brand of uniform your Overlord(s) tells you to wear - skullcap, wimple, headscaf, saffron robes, big guady bling necklace with a dead chap on it, turban, so long as it is your choice.

Oh and try to go to Sikh weddings, they are by far the best fun parties of any brand of imaginary deity worship!

Blu- I think you've misunderstood me. The complaint here is that the Church is inlcuded in decision making and governemtn and that this is too much power for Bishops/The Church.

In some countires they have Sharia law and this is NOT thought of as too much power as the country is Muslim. The Uk is Christian (Queen is Head of The Church) and it seems only natural and normal that some members of the House of Lords represent this. yet some people on this thread are complaining that is too much privelege.

My point is that you can't complain that some Chrustians are involved in UK govt (House of Lords) when it is perfectly OK for other countires to have religion influenced govt. If its OK for them it should be OK for us on a much smaller scale surely?

Oh and seeker- yes I do think its VERY relevent what your religion is in light of your thread title. How can you think it's not relevant?

What special privileges are Christians getting? - Where is this special treatment of which you speak ? - do we get the best table in restaurants ? Are we served first in the pub? - are we paid more than anyone else?

What privileges are we getting? I'd really love to know.

Y'know Seeker you sound a bit obsessed with Christianity - and not in a good way

AdamJSusan
hahahaha pmsl

For example.

All schools in this country are essentially Christian schools. If I want my children to participate fully in the life of any state school, they are obliged to take part in Christian worship.

Bank holidays happen during Christian festivals. An important privilege - although one I think we should keep.

Christmas lights and other tax payer funded celebrations of Christmas. Although I think again this is fine.

A large number of tax payer funded Christian schools that can give priority to religious believers. Again a pretty major privelege and one I don't think is right.

Tanith, Christmas is on the same day as the birth of Mithras, the God who held eucharists, was a teacher, performed miracles, cured the sick, returned to heaven in spring, had 12 disciples and shepherds attended his birth.

Easter is named after a pagan goddess.

OTheHugeManatee - a very good point, actually. But does this say more about the people of these nations than it does about the faith's they follow? I mean, the fact that when we go to vote, do you actually care what faith your politician follows as long as he his policies benefit you?

AdamJSusan - I totally agree with you, but do you think you could have said it in a slightly more respectful mannor?

Another thing though, and this is why I don't mind them teaching Christianity to my kids dispite my position as a non-religious person. There are some really interesting lessons to be learned from some of the stories (be they true or not, I don't really care). Take the good Samariton, for example. Good philosophy that can be applied to a lot of situations that aren't related to which deity you follow.

As for the people who I dislike, those who use their faith as excuses to conduct imoral actions, people are people. Some are evil. I have whitnessed someone use their religion as an excuse to beat their children, and an excuse to be prejudiced, and excuses to go to war. But evil people will use any other excuses available to do these things. Again, this says more about the people than it does about the faith they follow. As does what they get out of it, if you ask me.

Ok - apart from schools - ( the majority of non faith schools do very little in the way of Christian worship but never mind )

seeker- the state religion is Christianity-opt in or out as you wish- there's no law to say you must be a Christian. I would not for example move to Saudi and complain the schools are all Muslim. My son is taught about prayer, has said a prayer and visited a church. He has also learned about Diwali and Sikhism and the stories associated with their festivals. I am fine with all of this.

seeker- I ask you again- what is your religion?

25 bishops auttomatically in the House of Lords.

I'm a member of a very small Christian church and I resent the implication that we want to be privileged. There is not a single representative of my church in the HoL, we have no power over the way laws are made etc etc.

Incidentally, despite being a very very old group and in communion with Rome my church has no issue with contraception, the teachings of the church state quite clearly that sex is part of the relationship between a couple and is not just about procreation, there is also no issue with homosexuality etc. I admit that that may just be my particular branch, but our priests are very firm in their teaching that we have absolutely no right to judge other people and that Christian values mean accepting and loving everyone.

No one ever bothers to ask me what my church believes and I am frequently ridiculed for being a Christian, for being naive and deluded, for being a member of a church that doesn't allow contraception (I'm not) and for being a homophobic bigot (I'm not), for being anti single mothers, abortion etc etc (I'm not), for being in a religion that doesn't allow divorce even in the event of DV (not true). No one ever asks if that's true, they just hear the word Christian/Catholic and jump right in.

I would very much like to be treated with the kind of respect that followers of other religions get.

Other than that, I have no issue with separation of church and state. I think it would be nice for children to have assembly every day, to talk about current affairs or school life, to have time to be quiet and think,or have those chats where the police/firemen/lollipop man come in, but I don't think they should be religious outside of a religious school.

Oh, Christians are also meant to be modestly dressed. And the great thing about living in a country with freedom of expression is that you can wear a cross if you want. There are still many countries where Christians are persecuted, and they used to be in this country too (the UK hasn't been a Christian country for 2000 years) I don't see why we shouldn't be able to celebrate the freedom that we have here.

The linking of easter to the phase of the moon indicates its' pagan origins. You'd have thought that the writers of the new testament would have come up with an actual date of execution when they were making all of the other stuff up.

Great post Flingon.

Why is my religion relevant?