To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

[GothAnneGeddes]

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

UQD. Quite.

Thread about it that should say...

As for "Atheists spend much more time worrying about religious folk then the religious ever spend worry about them", my experience of being on the internet since 1994 is precisely the opposite of that.

"In Scotland there is indeed a system analagous to the one Roseflower suggests - which results in a lot of waste and helps perpetuate sectarianasm.

But to follow up what I was saying: the remnants of such a system in Scotland are a) expensive and b) encourage (or at the very least perpetuate) the cancer of sectarianism that we suffer from in the West of Scotland and c) make it difficult to justify denying the Muslims their own school."

That's interesting and depressing Prettybird. And although Roseflower didn't explicitly suggest it - as she says - it is the logical extension of people having rights to send their child to 'their' state faith school of choice.

It's wasteful and discriminatory. And worst of all, perpetuates tribalism and misunderstanding between people of different faiths.

I suggested nothing, explicity or otherwise! I really didn't. Please- no more.

Oh and Springchicken while we are at please don't mention elves. It will only come back in a bizarre, unexplained way to be blamed on me. Again.

"my experience of being on the internet since 1994"- Lol! Sorry but that really tickled me!

Roseflower: Sorry dear, no more elf abuse from me...

Okay - no suggestion! But do you see the extension of the argument?

Frantic51 - what Onagar was taking you up on was you misunderstanding in thinking that atheism is a faith. Same as I was.

It isn't.

Faith is when you hold something in contradiction with a rational Reading of the evidence.

I have never heard that defintion of faith.

What if you have faith in someone?

You say to your dc: " I have faith you will do well in your exam?"

Look what happens when you apply your definition of faith to that sentence.

Roseflower - I think you're just talking about a separate dictionary definition of the same word. Concise Oxford Dictionary, for example, says

Faith:

1. complete trust or confidence 2. firm belief, esp. without logical proof 3. a a system of religious belief

Roseflower - you are playing word games. Words have multiple definitions, but that does not mean they are interchangable. (no one sits on the Chair of the PTA..)

When Frantic said that atheism is a faith, presumably in the context she meant something akin to a religious faith.

Normally religious faith is invoked at the end of a thought process or conversation about why someone should maintain a belief in the face of evidence which if looked at rationally would lead them to conclude that the religion was a man-made story rather than a supernatural truth (for example the problem of evil- how do you reconcile belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevelent, omniscient god with the reality of meaningless suffering, the theological rationale is sketchy at best, 'in the end you have to have faith')

Your exam results example is not generally the same use of the word, ....unless maybe the person speaking to their DCs knows that they didn't write anything on the paper, but still maintain a faith that they will pass through a miracle.

X-post with Mistyflower who said it more succinctly

Oxford dictonary:

[mass noun]
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one's faith in politicians

(or example of dc in exam)

2 strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. [count noun] a particular religion:
the Christian faith[count noun] a strongly held belief:

Of course there is more than one meaning to the word which is what we need to distinguish. But the academic source clearly states 'based on spiritual conviction' which is quite different from saying 'Faith is when you hold something in contradiction with a rational Reading of the evidence', which could be read a bit dismissive tbh.

I don't think there is anything dismissive about pointing out that some beliefs are not arrived at by rational means. Faith is non-rational rather than irrational, rather like romantic love.

Im just need keen on Himayla's defintion, sorry. It just doesnt sit right. I prefer to stick with the academic one, but it horses for courses I suppose.

Roseflower - but that is pretty much what your definition says... 'rather than proof' = in contradiction with logic, evidence etc...

really this is just splitting hairs -Yes my definition is a bit less diplomatic than the dictionary but they are essentially saying the same thing.

Whereas not understanding the distinction between two everyday meanings of the word faith...Were you having us on? Unless you are not a native English speaker it seems a weird mistake to make. Like thinking that faith schools are for people who have faith in their children.

Hear we go again...

Did I say at any point anything about "not understanding the distinction between two everyday meanings of the word faith..."?

Nope. There is no purpose to your accusation.

MillyR -

yes I think you are probably right, the basis of faith is non-rational - like romantic love, sexual fantasies, enjoying dancing, addiction...its personal, some people get it and some don't, it's tied up with endorphins and other unconscious brain stuff.

But I also think there is an irrational side to belief in religious truth about the supernatural basis for these feelings, the existsnce of interventionist supernatural beings and miraculous events etc... none of which stand up to rational examination.

Eh? Roseflower ...why did you say this then ...

"You say to your dc: " I have faith you will do well in your exam?"

Look what happens when you apply your definition of faith to that sentence."

I.e. You were saying that the definition I gave for [religious type] faith was not correct because it couldn't be used in place of faith [in someone's abilities]

Because you made a definition of faith up.

Oh not the same-sex marriage business...
One of the (many) issues that really winds me up about the religious this one.

Marriage -as we know it today-is a legal transaction. People may or may not wish to attach other things to it- love, romance, fancy frocks, a nice day out at a posh hotel, but at heart marriage is a legal thing.

There is no reason why this legal right should be denied to homosexual people.

Diving in without having read the thread...sorry, having too much fun ... (ok, I was working)

Atheists complain on MN because by and large we're so darned polite and 'respectful' IRL. And we don't have any real equivalents to churches in which to gather with like-minded folk so have more need to seize on web forums as an alternative.

Whereas religious people are - maybe unthinkingly - quite often extremely rude to atheists IRL.

OK sorry I've been otherwise engaged. My rational for calling Atheism a "faith" in a nutshell I suppose is:

pantheism

1. the belief that identifies God with the universe.
2. the belief that God is the only reality, transcending all, and that the universe and everything in it are mere manifestations of Him. ? pantheist, n., adj. ? pantheistic, adj.

Coupled with the quote from Richard Dawkins that Pantheism is a "sexed up Atheism"

We could go around in circles forever arguing the toss over the definition of "Atheism" and "faith". Most people here, it seems, would regard Hinduism as a "faith" (and have listed it as such in some posts) and Atheism as not. Yet there are Atheist Hindus. To have a sensible discussion it has to be agreed where the parameters lie. Are we talking about God or, more narrowly, Creator God? If the former, then I can call Atheism a faith, if the latter then don't talk about Hinduism being a faith. It's all smoke and mirrors imo

The bottom line is; I find it impossible to grasp the concept that matter appeared from nowhere by "magic" and others find it impossible to grasp the concept of some form of higher intelligence than themselves. I am totally unconcerned by the opposing "beliefs" of the "Atheists" and have no "axe to grind" as it were. Some of them, on the other hand, are every bit as irksome as evangelicals of any other "faith" in their unrelenting fight to make everyone else see things their way and their ridicule of anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Science cannot (yet, at any rate) explain everything. The trusting "belief" of those who say that it can, or one day will, is as incredible to me as my belief in God is to them.

You can continue to argue at will but I'm bored with this thread now.

That's a shame, Grimma . Of course I'm Minnesotan and we're terrified of offending anyone. :)

It irritates me that anyone would be rude to you; the same right of free speech that allows me to say I believe in God w/o persecution allows you to say you don't, surely?