To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

[GothAnneGeddes]

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

I think most atheists would be happy non-whingers as long as religion didn't adversely affect their lives, choices and liberties.

The trouble is that it does, and as carminaburana says, looks set to do so for the forseeable.

Yet a belief in a unicorn doesn't effect your life.

Snorbs"the fact that some people have sacrificed their lives (and, sometimes, the lives of others) for those beliefs is desperately sad."

Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder what "sacrificing the lives of others" means in your language snorbs?

To me it means murder.

Saw this on the BBC and thought of this thread:

Religion may become instinct in nine nations, study says

It's two different things though, isn't it, Roseflower.

To some, believing in a god makes no more SENSE than believing in a unicorn.

That is not to say that belief in gods and unicorns both have the SAME EFFECT on a society.

LOL @ prettybird instinct/extinct

... I could try to claim it was deliberate to get people to read it but it wasn't

So it is silly to believe in God than it is a unicorn for you, then why bother getting yourself so worked up?

prettybird from what I have "seen" of you here on mn that would have been too out of character to have been believed!

Roseflower - because of the effects on choices, liberties etc I mentioned earlier.

To take just a few (diverse) examples - how atheists are discriminated against when it comes to getting their children into a decent local school, how homosexuals have been discriminated against with regard to freedom to marry, how the abuse of children in the care of religious institutions has been unlawfully covered up. Etc etc etc.

At least those who believe in unicorns don't go around telling people how to live their lives, or expect special privileges. And even if they tried, they wouldn't be likely to get very far.

But why would you even want your children to go to a faith school if religion was so abhorrent to you? You cannot hate religion because they happen to have the only decent state school locally to you!

There are actually very few Christians I know who have any problems with homosexuality. My Vicar would love to perform same-sex marriages. You cannot dismiss an entire belief system based on some extreme fundamentalist views.

Did it also not strike you odd when you read the bible Jesus made not one direct reference to homosexality?

Do not forget the open acceptance of homosexuality is very modern. There is still homophobia from atheists too.

I don't know anyone with faith who actually goes aorund telling people how to live. Not one.

The sheer irony is the atheists say they dont want to be told what do, but yet you all want to tell us Christians what to do. You expect special privelages just as much as the rest.

Why should the choices you want, the liberaties you want mean that you can only be happy if that means strangling the rights of the religious? How is that fair?

Lets sacrfice one freedom for our own?

What is fair is eqality for all. But wanting to take away one groups rights to please yourself is completley unacceptable.

"But why would you even want your children to go to a faith school if religion was so abhorrent to you? You cannot hate religion because they happen to have the only decent state school locally to you!"

I don't want my children to go to a faith school. I want them to go to a GOOD, local, state school. The bizarre system of tying schools to particular religions in some areas creates biases, lack of choice, and hence, discrimination.

"There are actually very few Christians I know who have any problems with homosexuality. My Vicar would love to perform same-sex marriages. You cannot dismiss an entire belief system based on some extreme fundamentalist views."

It's not a fundamentalist view, it's the law of the land. Same sex marriages aren't legal. In 2010 Gordon Brown apparently said that the government did not allow same-sex marriage because it was too "intimately bound up with questions of religious freedom".

Roseflower, I think your attempts to dismiss other people's supernatural beliefs are offensive.

It is true that a great many intelligent people devote time to developing and researching Christian culture and beliefs. That is certainly something to be respected and many people who have no belief in God were saddened by the death of John Macquarrie.

But the same is true for people who believe in fairies. A great many intelligent people work on folklore, sagas and so on, and develop and research ancient pagan beliefs. I have neighbours who have close relationships with elves, fairies and so on. I also spend quite a lot of time in Iceland where most people believe in fairy type elvish people. I have just as much respect for that as people I know who have had a vision of the virgin mary.

I don't see why I should have to put more effort into my non-belief in God than you are putting into your non-belief in fairies.

MillyR I haven't mentioned fairies.

It is MistyValley & Wamster I think you mean, but they mentioned leprauchens?

Leprechauns are within the range of fairy folk, as far as I'm aware, and you havet mentioned them. You described bringing up such ideas as childish in comparison to God. They are part of our cultural heritage, and whether or not you believe in the supernatural or not, children should be educated about the mythic structure that is part of the culture of the country they live in.

Faith schools are not 'tied' down- they were built by the Church or Christians for the purpose of education & faith. They have always been that way since they were founded.

I don't see how it fair that you think people of faith should lose their school to suit you? You have a choice, why remove theirs?

If Gordon Brown decided that, then that is him you should be taking up issue with.

I don't think there is a need for all faith schools to be shut down, but there are areas of the country where the schools available should be sensibly organised so that they match their local area. My friend teaches in a CofE Primary school where every child in the school is a Muslim. It seems a bit pointless the CofE keeping that school on when there are other areas of the country where there is more demand for CofE schools.

We have one CofE school in our local area, and it cannot fill its places because there are few people locally who want a religious education for their child. That puts pressure on the other primary schools for places.

It is also ridiculous if people live in an area where there is no non-church school within a reasonable distance of where they live.

"I don't see how it fair that you think people of faith should lose their school to suit you? You have a choice, why remove theirs?"

That's the whole point - many people's (including religious people's) choice is diminished or removed BECAUSE of faith schools. It would be fine if there were plenty of good schools with plenty of places in each area - some faith, some not. But in many areas the local faith school IS the only state school for miles around. And the faithful get first dibs on places there.

And frankly WHY people would prefer children to mix with children only (or mostly) of their own faith is beyond me. Another reason that I think faith schools are wrong is because they are segregatory and divisive. I would be saddened if my children were denied the opportunity to meet people of other faiths, or no faith, on an everyday basis.

Re same sex marriage - it's not the politicians that are the problem (for once) - it seems that they are afraid of upsetting the religious establishments. So who is CAUSING the situation, the government, or the religious establishments?

Firstly, I am not a miserable whiner. But then, I'm only a soft agnostic practical athiest, so I don't like to tell people what they think is wrong because we can never no for sure.

As for faith schools, my DP is a catholic and wanted to send our DC to the local Catholic School. After discussing the matter, I agreed to this for the following reasons:

1. I would be forcing what I think onto both my DC's and my DP if I did object.
2. I want my children to make their own choice. And the reason why this will be supported by letting them go to a Catholic School is because in the world that I know, religion is in the minority (don't know if that's everywhere, but I think it is these days), and therefore I will let them recieve the stories so that they can make their own choices in years to come.
3. The rates of bullying are lower in the Catholic School than the others.
4. It is more geographically convenient for us than the other school.
5. Most of the minority ratial groups of our area chose to go to the Catholic School, even those of other religions (believe it or not) so it gives ym DC's a broader cultural view of school.

But at the same time the fact the CofE has Muslim children surely shows they do not discriminate? But perhaps that particular example of a school could be addressed. But then what- the school turns secular because faith school are banned? Again,pointless as it is not serving it's immediate community, so we could argue perhaps it should become a Muslim school.

So a blanket ban on faith schools just isnt the right answer.

To be honest Im not sure why parents are so afraid of faith schools- having worked in many as a volunteer and on my PGCE I really did not see a huge difference. It's all quite laid back, the differences were not alarming.

I thought it was quite adorable they had things like a 'prayer bear'-I mean even if you dont beleive in prayer its still a useful tool for dealing with emotions and for a small child to feel comforted.I just couldnt see how anyone could find it a threat.

My dc was at a secular school before Christmas and she still did harvest festival, had the local vicar visit and sung hymns. So yes, even non-church schools have the religious input but it was about culture and critical thinking, being thankful. I hardly think it made much of impact on dc. Really seems so much fuss and fear about nothing to me.

Misty then the real problem is lack of school in the area in general. I think to direct the frustration at the faith schools, serving the local faith community is not helpful. Why not speak to your council and get a campaign going for new schools to be built if there is a lack.Im sure the schools creating new jobs in the area can only be benefical.

People like to mix with their own faith in order to foster it and strengthen it. Sending your child to a faith school will not seregrate them because they do not stop becoming part of a wider society.

But of course it would be awful to be "denied the opportunity to meet people of other faiths, or no faith, on an everyday basis". So why push to rid society of religion? Wouldn't that in the very least make things rather vanilla.

With the same sex marriage I agree. No one can stop two people who love each other from marrying as long as they are not hurting anyone. So yes, that is right in my eyes that it wrong to stop same-sex marriage.

It is fine to ask for change for one aspect of a religious intolerance. But in return to ask for total intolerance and oppression of that religion back is not right.

Why does getting rights for one group have to be at the total expense of another?

Roseflower, the CofE doesn't discriminate by directly saying that certain faiths cannot attend a school, it is more that in certain areas of the country people experience discrimination because all of their nearest schools are church schools, so they are at the bottom of the list for every state school.

That situation could be addressed without shutting down all religious schools.

Sorry, X post.

I think the balance is about right now between religion and secular society. There were issues when the Equality Act came in, because when there was conflict between different issues, it was unclear how sexual orientation and religious belief were ranked. The court cases that have come up over the last few years have really resolved that issue by placing sexual orientation above religious belief when there is a conflict.

"Misty then the real problem is lack of school in the area in general. I think to direct the frustration at the faith schools, serving the local faith community is not helpful. Why not speak to your council and get a campaign going for new schools to be built if there is a lack.Im sure the schools creating new jobs in the area can only be benefical."

Going by that argument then, are you saying that within every, say, 3 square miles of built up area there should be a C of E school, a Catholic school, a Muslim school, a Jewish school, and maybe a 'non-religious' school into which everyone else gets lumped? (Though of course the ones at the non-religious school would still have to do the Christian assembly thing by law, unless that got changed).

Each school would have to have sufficient places in each school year in order to accommodate anyone of that faith who wanted to attend. So you'd need a near-perfect match of places available and children of that faith whose parents wanted them to attend.

It's just not practical. Where do you draw the line at which religions are allowed to have a state faith school and which aren't?