boss is out of order questioning intergrity

[legaleagle21]

I was unwell this morning as was my daughter. I knew I had an important meeting so took so day nurse and stumbled to work. Hoping I would start to feel better.

DD was v upset (usual) and I knew was that well when I dropped her off at nursery so when I got to work I called them and they said she was v upset and her temp was up.

So I went in work and said to the boss i was going to have to go as I was not feeling well and daughter was not well. She said I needed to get nursery to call her to confirm daughter was not well.

I was floored I was so shocked and insulted by this - AIBU?

Sorry just realised it was another poster who said they thought she had no social skills.

Please don't listen to the poster who says that you should ask her to put any requests in writing. That would just make things worse and you would come across as very unreasonable.

If it makes you feel any better, my DS2 is autistic, and he doesn't follow many rules at all. Perhaps you might be better calling her something like "pedantic" rather than flinging about the name of disabilities as an insult, eh?

But honestly, while it might seem insulting, if you've verified that it is indeed company policy, she's within her rights. I would be a bit about it, but if she is strict about the rules, it can't be a huge shock. I assume you have a copy of the company policies, and so this information would have been available to you.

Agree with Triggles, better not to use the word "autistic" about someone unless you really know what the disability is like and you're not saying it as an insult.

Maybe she's had bad experience in the past...with people taking the p*ss? It's an effective way of letting people know her expectations, if nothing more.

lesley I am the poster who suggested she get requests in writing. That can be done in a polite way. Even if this is a formal policy of the workplace, it is still suggesting that the OP is being less than honest about her need to go home. I have found that people are a lot more careful about how they phrase things, if they have to commit to paper. They know that their comments will be 'on record' so are less likely to 'accuse' without having a legitimate reason. There is a lot of scope in verbal communication for misunderstanding, particularly if you have a boss with few social skills.

If my employer had spoken to me in that way, I would be very offended and would want all our communication regarding this issue to be in writing.

I'm not saying that my way would suit everyone, but it would be my approach. I would definitely clarify the details of this policy with the union/HR dept

karmabeliever

I really disagree with you. Do you think it is really reasonable to ask a manager to put every single request or instruction in writing? So your manager should write or email you such tiny things as can you go to thsi meeting on.. or can you bring me the report on... or can youwrite a letter to.... Also some things are easily communicated in writing others really need a discussion. If I was your manager yes I would be very careful in what I wrote to you. But this would be because this is a massive red flag in terms of your future actions.

I would be thinking that you will be taking out an official grievance or going to an industrial tribunal. This doesn't for a minute mean that I would automatically think you had evidence for this. But I would want to avoid it because of the large volume of work entailed.

I have just been through the first stages of an industrial tribunal so I know what I am talking about. I work for a small company so there was no one to delegate the work to.

The employee put in a claim with multiple points which was nonsense (and read like it took 20 minutes to write). But I literally spent days doing our reply and getting together all the evidence. Only then was he asked for evidence. He then withdrew his case because he had no evidence - the allegations were untrue.

So I would want to avoid you going down the same line. But tbh I would feel really bullied by you if I had to go along with your demand to put everything in writing. A manager has a right to talk to you and ask you to do things. And if you did this i would be watching you closely for ANY infractions of the rules.

Its not good to create such an adversial relationship. And I'm glad you don't work where I do.

But on the other hand lesley - as a manager I would be concerned if an employee felt they had to ask me to put everything in writing - yes because they could be a pain in the arse type who wants to build up a dossier - or also my management style could be making that employee unhappy or anxious. IN the example you gave - the fact that an employee doesn't have "evidence" DOESN'T mean their allegations are untrue - not saying that this is the case for you! But just that, if someone is being bullied and intimidated at work, there is not necessarily evidence of that.

also "would want all our communication regarding this issue to be in writing." isn't suggesting every little thing is documented - it is normal for all matters relating to holiday / sickness / etc to be put in writing anyway, isn't it?

I worked as a manager for one company who had an 'absence policy' as long as your arm.

It urged me to conduct a 'tick-box' return-to-work interview, even when someone had been sick, and went home for the afternoon.

The policy was definitely there to encourage people to think hard before they took any time off.

The theory was that if they knew they'd be checked up upon, any scammers would be put off, but honest people wouldn't mind.

Personally I thought it was intrusive, rather than insulting - and as a result, I often 'forgot' to do the interviews.

Your manager might not have had the luxury of 'forgetting' though, and had to stick to the rules.

Agree with lesley and pig about not being confrontational and asking for evidence in writing. You are essentially threatening a grievance.

Far better to keep it low key for now and escalate only when you REALLY want and need to.

Yes of course it could be the managers management style. Although if they are just poor at their job and it is not deliberate, then other employees would be unhappy as well. And while there may not be written evidence, unless a manager deliberately bullies and intimidates, there will usually be others who would give witness statements.

IME It is those who are being deliberately bullied who tend to be the most reluctant to stand up for themselves. Bullies tend to pick on those who are most vulnerable. Either because they find it hard to stand up for themselves, or because they desperately need the job and the bully knows this.

I think there is a big difference between incompetent managers and those who are bullies. Many people get promoted to management because they are good at the job they are currently doing. This doesn't mean they will be good managers.

With incompetent people, I always think it is better to try and resolve issues informally at first. It is obviously different with bullies.

I know industrial tribunal service are talking about making those who are making a claim, provide some evidence straight away so they can sift out the ones who may have a case.

The employee I talked about I am sure put in a claim hoping to get a pay out to withdraw the claim. Unfortunately many companies do pay out, not because the case is valid, but just because of the time and money that needs to be spent putting together a reply, gathering evidenvce and then presenting the case.

The industrial tribunal service have said publicly that they want to reduce the amount of claims that don't appear to have any basis. And you do need evidence to make a successful claim.

Lesley the information you refer to about the proposed changes to tribunal process is incorrect.

Currently anyone petiting at an Employment Tribunal has to provide evidence in the first instance by completing an ET1 form. An employer then has a chance to respond by completing a form sent to them with details of the complaint.

Then on the basis of that a ET will decide whether there is a case.

There is also current provision to prevent malicious claims. If a claim is found to be malicious the ET can order the complainant to pay the employers legal costs (usually each side has to bear their own legal costs).

The above is why I am not in favour of the proposed changes. IMO better to make more use of existing process.

Oh, and I still think the manager is making up policy or applying a weird interpretation to a real policy.

Sorry should have said...

Then on the basis of that the employment tribunal service will decide whether there is a case to answer.

lesley when I said everything in writing, I meant everything regarding the managers questioning of why the OP was leaving work. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean every request generally.

The reason I would want this particular thing in writing is because I think the manager is being unreasonable and quite aggressive in wanting 'proof' from and employee who has a good attendance and work record. Fair enough if they were requesting proof from an employee who regularly had time off, but they are not.

I think there has to be a degree of trust from ones employer and if your employer is saying to you 'I don't quite believe that your child is sick - prove it', then they don't trust the employee and in those circumstances I think the employee would do better to get that request for proof formalized.

Just to add, that not everyone works in a culture where colleagues would be prepared to stand up and say 'yes, X manager bullied a member of staff'. Lots of people, unless directly affected themselves, will keep their heads down and try to stay out of it. They will fear consequences.

This whole situation could have been avoided if the manager said ' I'm really sorry to have to ask, but this is new company policy, would you mind filling in a form/providing a doctors certificate'. But the manager didn't do that. She has directly questioned the OPs honesty and that would really put my back up if I was in the OPs position and I would respond in kind.

Part of being a good manager is being able to handle people. This particular manager doesn't inspire confidence in her ability to do her job properly, if she is unnecessarily upsetting the people who work for her/him.

Karma, since (I assume) this is the first time the manager has done this to the OP, I would not take an unnecessarily aggressive stance until I am sure it is a pattern of behaviour that needs a stronger stance to challenge. In that situation, a written request is a good first warning shot across the bow, to a plan of escalation.

I think it is best to hang back and deal with it in a less aggressive way and avoid burning bridges if you don't need to.

Fair enough blueshoes. It would have pissed me off sufficiently that I would probably want to send that warning shot, but I accept that not everyone would want to do that first off.

I think that for me, being called a liar is one of those trigger things that makes me see red, whereas someone else would maybe not take it so personally and just see it as company policy, albeit badly executed.

karma, I agree. Which is why I asked the OP earlier on whether she thought the boss was intentional or just unthinking. It does make a difference.

Agreed, it does.

She has shown a huge lack of respect for the OP by asking this question and not even bothering to dress it up a little, so as not to cause offence. You would think that someone who has risen through the ranks and been promoted would have some idea of how to communicate with people, so viewing it negatively, you could think that she has done it on purpose.

On the other hand though, sometimes idiots slip through the net and get promoted, even though they are lacking in essential managerial skills.

I guess only the OP can judge which is true.

Katie the industrial tribunal service process is not quite as you describe. What actually happens is someone can make a claim against someone else. All that person has to do is complete and send in a form that asks for some details including details of the case. For example, I think I have been discriminated on the basis of gender because of x, y and z.

They may send in evidence at that point, but they don't have to. The employer is then sent a copy of the form and asked to indicate whether they agree with what has been alleged. If they don't the employer has to complete the form explaining why the case been made is wrong.

ACAS are also contacted - their job is to try and mediate an agreement between both parties - usually a pay off to the employee.

If an agreement is not mediated then the case will be looked at by someone who will decide either:

1. The case is ineligible. Only decided if someone can not make a claim e.g. they were not employed for long enough.
2. They decide their is a case to answer and it is sent straight to an industrial tribunal hearing.
3. They decide the case should be heard at a pre hearing to decide if there is enough of a case to be heard at a full hearing. With this option they may ask the employee or employer for evidence if this has not been provided.

So someone can submit a claim that an employer has to respond to, even if there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim.

Yes someone in theory could have to pay legal costs if it is deemed to be a malicious claim. However the advice I have received is that it is very very rare for this to be granted.

In practice there are a substantial number of malicious cases. This is why the pre hearing stage was introduced and is why further refinements are being considered.

OP..did you tell your boss first that you were going home because you felt ill and then added your dd was ill too? Because, if that's the case he is acting like he doesn't believe it's you who's ill and that you were just saying that to pick up your daughter. Either way, he sounds like a git !

As I said I think if this is a one off it would be better to deal with it informally. But what you could do is write down exactly what happened, sign and date it. If you do have ongoing problems, these notes will be considered as evidence. But if anything else happens, write and sigh it asap.

I hope the other children in the nursery don't catch anything...

differentnameforthis - I agree i should not have taken her - it was the wrong decision. I let the fact i had a meeting cloud my judgement. It is not a mistake I will make again.