In what circumstances would you say torture becomes justifiable?

[AgentZigzag]

I watched Unthinkable last night, and it's one of those films you keep thinking about afterwards.

It had the scrumptious <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.filmshaft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael-sheen.jpg&imgrefurl=www.filmshaft.com/michael-sheen-on-new-moon/&usg=__5lKBsXhekLebPIJcaD-nfIGFIOk=&h=238&w=250&sz=15&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=qA3bfgVzWz8sPM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=145&ei=32N3TYnMGsSs8APe6LWgDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichael%2Bsheen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1146%26bih%3D696%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=350&vpy=117&dur=3585&hovh=190&hovw=200&tx=108&ty=130&oei=wGN3TZiiKM25hAev7YmaBg&page=1&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Michael Sheen (I would) playing a terrorist who threatened to set off three nuclear bombs in US cities, and then let himself be caught by the authorities, primarily because he knew they'd torture him and this would prove his point about how crap 'we' are.

The example used in the film was that if they didn't get the info from Michael Sheens character 10 million people would die, plus the associated economic, genetic, environmental and social impact that goes with a nuclear attack.

If there was proof that this was at stake, wouldn't a government have an obligation to get the information from a person who chose to behave in that way?

I think 99% of people would say torture should never be used (with the 1% perhaps being people who use violence themselves?) me included, I used to write letters for Amnesty Internationals Urgent Action group, so I'm not coming at this believing torture is OK.

Having said that, in reality the world has its fair share of sinister, dark people who would destroy the way we choose to live given half a chance.

They started off using finger nails, teeth, electricity and water to break him, then his wife, and thankfully stopped at the point when his children were brought in before anything was done to them.

But like most things we think of as wrong, is it possible that although we know torture is wrong, that there are some circumstances where it's use might possibly be justifiable?

How would you measure the point where the ends would justify the means though?

But if you think it's not acceptable at any level, for any reason, how would you solve the dilemma described above? Appealing to the persons better nature is time consuming and may not work, would you just let 10 million people die for the sake of the values you hold?

Oh yes I'd like to see it for sure Agent.
I'm not huge on gore and watching scenes of torture but it sounds like it's well worth it.

A lot of it is implied and him shouting, so you only see it in your head, but that's enough.

You'll probably think it's a crock of shite

Agent - I think you've seen the extended version which has this ending. The original DVD version ends with CAM with the kids outside.

well I'll not hold it against you!

Slur - don't think of it as a film, think of it as a play.

I'd have been well pissed off if it'd ended there, I'm watching on Sky Prem.

Perhaps they're setting it up for a second one, 'Don't even think the unthinkable'?

Cos you only see the timer get down to 00.00, (don't read that bit slur ) so they could go after the others involved in it.

Well it's either torture him or basically get sent right back to the dark ages with radiation added to the mix for the people who survived enjoyment. Radiation which would pollute food and water sources, meaning out of those that did live many would be dying of starvation or dehydration. Once in those circumstances I can tell you right now there will be a whole lot of 'uncivilised' behaviour as it truly becomes a fight for your right to survive and people will harm other people to do that.

Basically many people feel they could never do it, but given the right circumstances you will be surprised what people will do, you never really know till your in that situation.

arf. oh that you'd maybe see though some snobbery preference of mine, I might be far more forgiving of a play tis true. You can get away with more for less I think.

But I am on a Promise. I have am doing weekly train commute tomorrow morning so have opportunity to watch then, althoguh I'm thinking that busy daylight train might spoil atmosphere a bit. hmm. Maybe save for tomorrow evening instead...

I dunno, I WANT to say never, but that isn't exactly what I think. If it wasn't fictional then I would say that 10 million people outweigh the guy and his family, BUT really it is pretty unforgiveable to do it.

There however people who I personally would enjoy torturing, but I am not a very nice person so there is that.

The film was very careful to portray the torturer as a nice person morloth.

If that's the case, you're not nice enough to be a torturer.

Bet that's a relief eh?

You will come back and tell us how you got on won't you slur?

Well there is another dilemma there are people in the world who are cold enough to not be damaged (any more) by inflicting the torture. I assume the US military have some of these people around. Why use a nice guy?

I was thinking more as revenge type stuff for myself. The pricks that laughed at Peter Connolly when he was trying to stand after they broke his spinal column, that sort of person. I would actively enjoy making them scream.

They crossed my mind when I was thinking about the death penalty morloth, but I didn't like to bring them up because they still make me so angry.

Wouldn't the parallel here be to extra-judicial executions, not the death penalty handed out by courts?

The "ticking time bomb" schenario that you see in 24 cannot exist in real life because you can never know if the person you are about to torture:

a) actually knows something
b) is going to tell you if they do
c) won't just throw you a red herring

So while I would happily torture a terrorist in theory, I wouldn't in practice because you'd never know for sure that there would be any point. And also for all the humanitarian reasons and stuff, too.

And, ZeroMinusZero, is actually the person you think they are. The example of Jean Charles de Menezes shows us that it can all go very badly wrong.

Well indeed Meditrina. It's funny how in 24 Jack Bauer never seems to torture anyone who doesn't know anything.

I only watched the first series of 24, but in the prog they have to make a sharp distinction between the goodies/baddies and torturing an innocent possibly wouldn't go down well?

In real life our 'side' is both good and bad at the same time, and even though the other side is the 'enemy' you can kind of understand where they're coming from.

I don't belive in government sponsored torture (the same why I don't belive in the death penalty) but if someone hurt my dd I wouldn't hesitate in ripping them to shreds and making sure they felt every second of it.. Hmm weird that.

Vajazz - but would you torture someone to prevent your DD being horrifically injured or killed in the first place?

I would Rhinestone if I am being honest I would probably do it to an innocent if it meant my babies were safe, I would do anything to protect them.

I always say that is the difference between how I feel about my DH and my DCs, I would die for DH but I would kill for my kids.

It is not right and it is not civilised but it is the truth. Anything.

For those who might be interested, there is an interesting programme on torture - real life, not Hollywood - on BBC2 right now. It's talking about US use of torture (Iraq) and whether Uk was complicit. Also touching on what happens in Pakistan.

LaurieFairyCake Sorry chuck, I'm going to have to disagree with you by saying torture would work on me! Try sleep deprivation on me and I would shop my granny!:)

On a serious note though, I saw a programme some time ago detailing what a suspected terrorist endured at Guantanamo Bay and it was awful. How some victims have lived through it is beyond me.

At the beginning of the second world war Churchill was asked to consider torture. He rejected it on the basis that you can't take seriously "information" given by someone who is being tortured. Basically that people will say anything to get the torture to stop.

The second part of "The Secret War on Terror" (the programme I mentioned on this thread this time last week) has just started on BBC2.

Very thought-provoking given all that has happened in the last week.