In what circumstances would you say torture becomes justifiable?

[AgentZigzag]

I watched Unthinkable last night, and it's one of those films you keep thinking about afterwards.

It had the scrumptious <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.filmshaft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael-sheen.jpg&imgrefurl=www.filmshaft.com/michael-sheen-on-new-moon/&usg=__5lKBsXhekLebPIJcaD-nfIGFIOk=&h=238&w=250&sz=15&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=qA3bfgVzWz8sPM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=145&ei=32N3TYnMGsSs8APe6LWgDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmichael%2Bsheen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1146%26bih%3D696%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=350&vpy=117&dur=3585&hovh=190&hovw=200&tx=108&ty=130&oei=wGN3TZiiKM25hAev7YmaBg&page=1&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Michael Sheen (I would) playing a terrorist who threatened to set off three nuclear bombs in US cities, and then let himself be caught by the authorities, primarily because he knew they'd torture him and this would prove his point about how crap 'we' are.

The example used in the film was that if they didn't get the info from Michael Sheens character 10 million people would die, plus the associated economic, genetic, environmental and social impact that goes with a nuclear attack.

If there was proof that this was at stake, wouldn't a government have an obligation to get the information from a person who chose to behave in that way?

I think 99% of people would say torture should never be used (with the 1% perhaps being people who use violence themselves?) me included, I used to write letters for Amnesty Internationals Urgent Action group, so I'm not coming at this believing torture is OK.

Having said that, in reality the world has its fair share of sinister, dark people who would destroy the way we choose to live given half a chance.

They started off using finger nails, teeth, electricity and water to break him, then his wife, and thankfully stopped at the point when his children were brought in before anything was done to them.

But like most things we think of as wrong, is it possible that although we know torture is wrong, that there are some circumstances where it's use might possibly be justifiable?

How would you measure the point where the ends would justify the means though?

But if you think it's not acceptable at any level, for any reason, how would you solve the dilemma described above? Appealing to the persons better nature is time consuming and may not work, would you just let 10 million people die for the sake of the values you hold?

I would personally be ok with torturing a kidnapper of my child to get information.
I would also be ok with being arrested and convicted for it.
what would i get in the uk for that? mmm, maybe 12yrs, 7 for good behaviour, and thats with an unsympathetic jury.

The point at which I accept that another person is to be tortured to save my life is the point where my life is not one worth saving.

Besides, people lie under torture, so I'd probably die anyway.

I would torture anyone who ever harmed my child. No scruples about that one at all.

YABU - to be be thinking anything other than "that film was shit". Also, for bringing it to my attention, again

Torture is never justifiable. If a person is in a position where torture is looking like a viable option to remedy a serious situation, that person should be willing to face severe punishment for committing it.

No fanella, the end was shit, the film was good

I think I might accidently spit a bit of drool over Michael Sheen were I ever to meet the man himself

You had something (someone) distracting you, so you're opinion is cleary deluded

Have you ever taken up your concerns with our government sanctioning torture on your behalf maryM?

I suppose that could be asked of anyone who thinks there are no circumstances where it's OK.

Our government (not that it's a tangiable entity) is complicit in torture, where are the protesters/rioters saying they disagree?

Probably at home with their feet up because they distance themselves from it being their responsibility.

Riot and demonstration aren't the only form of protest and they're not always effective. Frankly, they didn't do us much good in 2003 when millions marched against the Iraq war without any impact on government policy whatsoever.

Amnesty International and other human rights NGOs do actually have a large British membership who do frequently lobby the UK government on torture and other human rights issues. Ordinary people also ask questions and raise concerns about torture through their MPs and through the Freedom of Information Act.

Sure, this isn't going to save the world tomorrow but nor is it sitting "at home with their feet up because they distance themselves from it being their responsibility".

I was going to mention AI, thanks for doing it quicker than me togarama

Never acceptable/justifiable.

I really hate torture.I think it's too barbaric.I read a really awful story about a lil girl and just really hate the thought of it

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few so if you have to torture one to save a million then so be it and if that one is a nut job hell bent on death and destruction then he deserves it

I wrote letters on behalf of AI whilst I sat at home with my feet up, getting angry in a lazy way

I said riots/demos because they're a visible sign of peoples anger, lobbying etc are too long term to be effective, and if they did any good it wouldn't go on.

Trouble is, organisations like AI don't have a huge amount of welly behind them, and because of the secretive nature of torture it's hard to get a grip on where it's going on.

I suppose this makes it easy for it not to be a priority on peoples list of things to get worked up about because what can you do about it??

I think saying it's not a nice thing is an understatement daisy, but then nor is the killing, maiming and causing pain to the victims of terrorist attacks families.

I don't like telling off DD1, but I know I have to do it or the consequences are too horrific to consider (resulting in a precocious child and a nightmare of an adult ).

Never. It will cause the person to say whatever they think is wanted-there is nothing to say it is accurate.

I thought Unthinkable was one of the best films I've ever seen. It really made me challenge my views.

I thought the Carrie-Ann Moss character was brilliant, because she was 'everywoman'. Her transition was totally believable.

I must admit, I thought the ending was a cop-out though.

If someone threatened to pull my finger nails out, waterboard me or electrocute me (other forms of torture are available!) then I would probably be more inclined to give them the information that they wanted from me.

Oddly enough I was having this conversation with my stepfather not long ago, since leaving the army 20 years ago he has had some very interesting UN/Foreign Office jobs in places (largely middle east/africa) that they don't usually allow tourists... He has seen some terrible terrible things that people have done to eachother (matching children's heads to their bodies in Bosnia and the babies ritually slaughtered in Nigeria being the worst examples) - in the name of Religion no less. He is all for controlled torture and I tend to agree with him.

It's not nice, but then neither is sending young men and women out to war zones and exposing them to the sorts of trauma that will follow them through life. It's funny how we all seem to get up in arms about a handful of people being tortured, with the aim to protect in the wider picture, when we are happy to send literally thousands of Servicemen to war where they are exposed to conditions that most of us would consider life alteringly traumatic - or torture...

There can never be a black and white argument for this though - human nature is such that there will always be a grey area. Unfortunately we cannot all live in a little bubble with our fingers in our ears - there are necessary evils in life.

Lest we not forget, it is very likely that the larger majority of people who are tortured in controlled circumstances probably took the calculated risk that it was something that might happen to them when they started out on their chosen root in the first place...

Never acceptable.

"never acceptable" is not quite the same as never justifiable though...

Your family is jetting off on a lovely summer holiday, however there is a nutter on the plane who plans to make a grand statement at the expense of thousands of innocents. All that stands between their being saved is a smirking extremist, who will only give the necessary information if "pressed" to do so. Could you justify the demise of thousands on the basis that torture is inhumane?

Torture is never justifiable. That's an absolute.

The kind of imaginary scenarios people invent to try to justify torture are just that, imaginary. Kiefer Sutherland is an actor and 24 isn't real life.

Yeah rhinestone, she was the most compelling I thought because she was the only one with anything to lose ie the clear boundaries around her humanity.

H was a seasoned torturer so it was nothing new to him, Sheen had been there/done that before and knew he'd probably be tortured to death, and the govt had deniability and it wasn't any of its members doing the deed.

I was at DH when she stuck the knife in him and became one of them.

It was weird the way the film makers made you side with the 'baddies', like in District 9 when you fall in love with the alien and his lad and want them to come back and kick earths arse

Asteria, does being at war mean people are able to think differently about torture do you think because the rules are different?

Just asthe death penalty is wrong, so torturing people is wrong.

And will alway be wrong.

I still think it's barbaric.After reading what happened to little Tesslynn I can't think it's acceptable.It's probaly clouded my view but it has really upset me.I think it's too much