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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think "being drunk" is no defence for raping someone

259 replies

SmashingNarcissistsMirrors · 08/03/2011 12:15

i'm absolutely shocked by this case where a man has been acquited of raping a woman because he was so drunk he thought she was his girlfriend and didn't realise he was in the wrong bedroom.

this is so so wrong. how many men will now use "being drunk" as a defence?

not only this but according to the article the girlfriend had earlier said she was too ill for sex. plus the victims phone was found dismantled in the mans sock when he was arrested.

how can this happen?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363964/Haydor-Khan-cleared-rape-said-thought-I-BRUNETTE-girlfriend.html

OP posts:
ZZZenAgain · 08/03/2011 14:02

"Mr Khan told a jury he was ? out of my nut? and only realised his error when he caught a glimpse of Miss Freeman?s face in the dark.
The court heard that his first thought was not of guilt, but instead: ?Bloody hell. I?ve just had sex with someone old enough to be my mum. He was cleared of rape 2 weeks ago."

I findthis very disturbing, I wonder if it influenced the jury that she was older than him

ZZZenAgain · 08/03/2011 14:03

if it was not rape though, what was it?

ZZZenAgain · 08/03/2011 14:11

just seenthere is another 12 page thread running on this

SmashingNarcissistsMirrors · 08/03/2011 15:18

where is it ZZZenAgain?

OP posts:
ZZZenAgain · 08/03/2011 15:21

I think feminism

will look and link

ZZZenAgain · 08/03/2011 15:23

here

StealthPolarBear · 08/03/2011 17:45

Even assuming it was a complete accident on his part, why wasn't he convicted of something?
If a gun you're holding accidentally shoots someone in the head I bet you'd be convicted of something

StealthPolarBear · 08/03/2011 17:46

Yes, I think I'm thinking the same as you ZZZ
If it wasn't rape...well it sure as hell wasn't consensual sex
So a mistake was made but why should he get off scot free

HerBeX · 08/03/2011 18:04

The reason he got off, was because deep down, most people don't really believe rape is all that terrible.

They think that a man going to prison for at least five years for an ill-judged fuck, is far far worse than a woman being raped.

Because men are more valuable than women.

People pay lip service to the idea that rape is terrible. But in reality, they don't think it is.

In the old days, they did, because a man who raped a woman was violating another man's property.

But now he's just violating a woman, it doesn't matter quite as much.

That's why juries bend over backwards to cling onto the unlikeliest possibility of innocence.

I think one useful adaptation could be (not just for rape), that juries could be made to disclose the reasons for conviction. This would also be useful in cases such as that of Sally Clarke, where the jury convicted on the basis of the bogus statistic that was used about the possiblity of cot death. And another adaptation, would be that anyone who sits on a jury of a rape trial, should actually have to sit through a training day where they learned the reality of rape rather than the myths and where they had the opportunity to ask questions so that any rape myths they have in their heads, get an airing and can be discussed openly and dispelled.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 08/03/2011 18:23

completely agree HerBex, with both your diagnosis and suggested remedies.

was shocked when my lawyer friend explained to me last week that if a judge tries a case they have to give the reasons for their judgement but juries' deliberations are secret. I can see the arguments against trying rape trials by judge rather than jury, but if ever there was a type of case where openness is needed about the reasons for the judgements, it is rape cases.

Particles · 08/03/2011 18:38

I would like to think that if any one of us had been on that jury, we could have given the others food for thought.

That poor woman, raped and then further humiliated by that little tw*t's comments. Why are we hearing about the sexist little digs about her age he made during the trial and not more of her evidence?

Drunk or not, his actions amounted to rape and Ms Freeman is now a rape victim as a result of his apparently drunken and certainly ill-judged actions. Where is her justice?

manticlimactic · 08/03/2011 18:58

So he got off because he was drunk? So, what if I'm drunk and kill someone - wonder if I'd get off scot free?

StealthPolarBear · 08/03/2011 19:14

depends - are you a man?

cumfy · 08/03/2011 20:03

All very very odd.

How cold could it really have been on 31st August ?

Does she really appear like a woman who most men would feel "sick" to be in bed with ?

Her dismantled mobile in his sock in his room ?
Confused

SmashingNarcissistsMirrors · 08/03/2011 21:55

the dismantled mobile is particularly sinister. it suggests an attempt to remove her means of communicating (for help) either before of after the attack.

brave woman to go public like that. she has gone through hell.

OP posts:
HerBeX · 09/03/2011 09:16

Yes the dismantled mobile screams intent, regardless of the other factors.

Juries are on the side of rapists. They really do not wnat to convict on the basis of no reasonable doubt - they only want to convict on the basis of no doubt whatsoever. Unlike any other crime. I'm sure there's a good pecentage of men in prison who have been accused of burglary who didn't do it, but the facts as presented to the jury, left no room for reasonable doubt, only unreasonable doubt. It's only with rape that the unreasonable doubt is the deciding factor.

OrangeClouds · 09/03/2011 15:18

The original story has finally been covered by someone other than the Mail. Telegraph

Chil1234 · 09/03/2011 15:45

In law, rape is treated as a crime of 'basic intent' (as opposed to 'specific intent') and intoxication is not therefore admissable as a defence.

HerBeX · 09/03/2011 16:41

He definitely had a basic intent to rape someone didn't he?

Can't believe the level of rape apologia on the Daily Mail comments. It's sickening.

HeathcliffMoorland · 09/03/2011 17:05

It's awful. Agree that the phone thing would demonstrate intent.

olderandwider · 09/03/2011 17:29

"I was so drunk I didn't realise I was driving someone else's car. I had to force the door open and hot wire it to, but I still managed to drive it. But I didn't steal it because I honestly thought it was my car. Can I go now?"

Chil1234 · 09/03/2011 17:35

'Basic intent' has a particular distinction in law. It can involve intent or recklessness but you do not have to have an ulterior motive or premeditation. So intoxication is not relevant because all that is required is proof that you have caused actual harm or damage. Rape falls in this category.

'Specific intent' goes beyond the state of mind at the time and looks at the motivation for the attack. In that case intoxication can come into play, putting into question whether the crime was deliberately premeditated. Even if it is shown that alcohol clouded someone's judgement, there has still been a crime. In a murder case, for example, a successful intoxication defence can mean a conviction for manslaughter i.e. killing without premeditation. There is no distinction in law between 'rape' and 'premeditated rape'.

Technically, therefore, rape cases cannot be successfully defended on the basis of intoxication. My feeling is that something else went wrong.

HerBeX · 09/03/2011 17:58

Judging by the Daily MAil comments, what went wrong is that the jury assumed that she deliberately left her door unlocked as she wanted him to come in and shag her.

One of them even said "a woman scorned"

FFS.

We so desperately need to get people educated about this, there is so much ignorance out there.

HerBeX · 09/03/2011 17:59

When I say "one of them" I mean one of the posters on the DM thread, not oen of the jury, obv...

I'm just surmising that the jury are as ignorant as the average...

ZZZenAgain · 09/03/2011 19:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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