To assume someone using phrase 'of the --- persuasion' is being racist?

[alsmutko]

Or anti-Semitic in this case, as the person was described as 'a gentleman of the Israeli persuasion', i.e. an Orthodox Jew.

The comment was in a letter to a newsletter I get - in which said gentleman apparently told another (a friend of the letter-writer) not to eat the 'full English breakfast' (on a train, i.e. a public area) as it offended his faith.

I'm a bit doubtful about the anecdote in any case; surely the dietry laws apply to Jews but not to Gentiles? Unless said Gentile was walking into a synagogue or kosher home eating a bacon butty it won't offend the faith? It might disgust an observant Jew if he was sitting next to someone eating bacon, but that would apply to some vegans I know! Surely he'd just change seats?

So, is this story anti-Semitic or a genuine tale about the religious trying to inflict their religion on an unwilling other person?
And is the phrase 'of the --- persuasion a little bit racist?

"So, is this story anti-Semitic...?

And is the phrase 'of the --- persuasion a little bit racist?"

Yes and yes. YANBU

I can't see how the phrase could be construed as racist although it is a bit awkward in its construction. Possibly the person was trying to say a jew from Israel?

I think we are so tied up with trying not to offend or use language that could be considered racist that we resort to these convoluted phrases

I don't see how that term is racist, story aside. Unless I'm missing something.

What crystalglasses said. It's a dated and mildly pompous way of describing somebody's race.

I think it will soon get to the stage where nobody speaks to anybody else about anything at all... there are always people ready to find offence even where none is intended.

I don't see how the man on the train could have known where the orthodox Jew was from - unless he was waving his passport around.
For the record, not all Jews are Israeli and not all Israelis are Jews. Not all Jewish Israelis are Orthodox Jews either.

Most likely he was from North London. In fact there are some ultra-Orthodox Jews who would be offended to be called Israelis as they don't recognise the state of Israel (which can't be formed until the Messiah arrives).

I am sure I've heard people describe others as 'of the African persuasion' etc.

I've never heard that term - but it sounds like someone trying not to be racist to me? Saying 'of the Israeli persuasion' doesn't make sense to me, but I can imagine my granny's generation saying that because they'd finally cottoned on that it was a bit rude to say 'a Jew' and hadn't realized that in some situations (eg., talking about Orthodox Jewish dietary rules), you do actually have a good reason to mention someone's religion without skirting about it!

Surely "of the Israeli persuasion" doesn't even make sense? :S It certainly doesn't sound natural. I think this phrase only works for things you choose, e.g. of the vegetarian persuasion doesn't sound as weird to me, but Israeli does.

"Of a (insert whatever) persuasion" was a term that was once acceptable and used in court and on records. So it depends on the age of the writer.

I think it is best to try not to second guess how someone else feels, you, yourself have used the word disgust, i know many people who do not eat food because of religious or cultural reasons but don't feel anything about others doing it, unless done in a manner to deliberatly disrespect them.

I would always be wary of second hand tails such as these and unless happened to the person writing them, they should not be printed.

But 'of the persuasion' - has a perjorative aspect as does using the term Israeli as a synonym for Jewish unless the narrator KNEW that the person in question held an Israeli passport.

Why not just say Jewish? What is wrong with that?

I think you can safely assume the person is being old-fashioned and pompous. Whether they are also being racist depends on what exactly they are saying.

I've an elderly relative who does similar in describing women as "those of the feminine persuasion".

Birdsgottafly - I have to agree with you about these sort of anecdotes. Some of them later appear on websites such as Snopes as urban myths.

Unfortuneately some people take these stories at face value and therein lies the problem.

It depends. I am Jewish and it really annoys me when people assume that my ancestory is Isreali, but I forgive people thier ignorance.

I can't believe that someone might ask them not to eat a full english as it might be offensive to look at someone eat it in thier presence.

So, in essence, if the writer in the newsletter was deliberatly making the story up to incite some anti-semitism but trying hard to make it not look like it, then yes, it is rascist. If not then th writer might just be a common or garden twat!

HTH

The use of language changed under the nazi's, and has continued to change. There were and still are strong feelings about the clasification of people using just one term. There is still, for some, strong connatations , around using one label.

I do think alot of older people are confused about what they should and should not say. It isn't always easy for younger people to understand.

Stories such as that one are usually only told to promote intolerence.

depends how old they are. I know some elderly people find it confusing to know how to refer to people without causing offence, because they knew as a usual term is now not acceptable.
However, when you team it with the "story" it sounds like the person is racist/anti-semitic/whatever.

The phrase "of the _ persuasion" isn't racist, it's just a stock newspaper letters page phrase. It's meant to be lighthearted, and can refer to any aspect of a person's identity.

Conflating Israeli and Orthodox Jew is ignorant.

The story sounds like a bit of a Winterval thing. Hard to
imagine it really happened, but maybe it did.

He was probably trying hard not to appear racist-I've lost track of what is and isnt racist or some other 'ist' these days.Is a 'lady' better or worse than 'a person of the female persuasion'?Of course we are all women but you cant address a group with the word 'Women'.

Sorry I call bullshit on the 'this person is elderly' / 'it was acceptable in their day' / they are probably trying not to appear racist' / 'it's very confusing about what is politically correct these days'

If they are that concerned about how they appear why don't they just not mention it?

"I was on the train the other day and the person opposite me asked me not to order the full breakfast as it offended his Jewish faith."

You don't lose anything by not mentioning the person's appearance or referring to their nationality.

The incident is almost certainly fictional imo.

I have only ever heard that phrase used in a TV interview with a local BNP candidate who claimed to have 'many friends of the Asian persuasion'.

And the story sounds like bollocks.

Its not bullshit, I can assure you. I've talked to elderly people who find it very confusing, especially those with early dementia whose speech patterns can slip back to their younger selves.

Its not actually confusing whats acceptable, but it can be if you are easily confused.

YANBU I reckon the anecdote was a load of anti-semitic bollocks.

But if this person is travelling by train and inventing relating stories for insertion in a newsletter then I would expect they are not in the stages of dementia and have reasonable control of language. And if they don't then the editor certainly should.

Tondelayo, you're not making sense, unless what you mean is that no-one should ever talk about someone else's customs. How could you tell that story without saying that the Jewish man was Jewish? It doesn't make any sense otherwise!

Plenty of people feel uncertain what's the term least likely to cause offense. I have Irish Protestant ancestry and I can assure you that referring to someone's religion could be seen as as big a no-no as referring to their race!

You don't have to use an adjective to describe the man but to describe his religion. That is if the narrateor was doubtful about the 'right on' use of language these days (which given that they've made up shared this tale, I doubt it) anecdote.

Or you could just say that the man is Jewish - there is no need for 'of the persuasion' nonsense.

How would there be an issue about referring to someone's religion in a story about er religion?

WRT confused old people: My grandma is 94 and is convinced that the (former) Irish currency is called "The Cunt".

It doesn't mean that we don't correct her.

Agree with Tondelayo.

LittleRedDragon I reckon Tondelay made sense when she said: "I was on the train the other day and the person opposite me asked me not to order the full breakfast as it offended his Jewish faith."

Given that the aim of the story was meant to show how some religious folk seem to think we should all bow down to their beliefs then the reason for the story is obvious, and if the wording used was the sentence Tondelayo used then it would make sense without being racist.

I still think the story's made up though.